Arminianism Another Gospel

http://www.hereistand.net/Maclean.htm ^ | 7/23/02 | Rev. William Maclean, M.A.

[rdb3]

Funny how Spurgeon wasn't described with respect to Christ (i.e. Christian) only with respect to doctrine or to men.

That was a "pop and no kick." Lay aside your weapon for 30 seconds, pick it back up, and clear the barrel.

You don't seem to understand why I said that. It was in direct response to another poster who claimed to be Baptist and that Baptists weren't "Reformed," i.e., didn't break away from Rome.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

Spurgeon is probably the most famous of all Baptist preachers. But how could someone who now calls himself a Baptist argue that the Baptist denomination wasn't born out of the Reformation when viewing its own history?

That's why I said that, "Not only was he a Baptist, but he was a stalwart Calvinist."

Lastly, what is called "Calvinism" is NOT a doctrine of men. Far from it. It is nothing more than the undiluted Gospel. Calvin neither called his 5 points "Calvinism" nor "TULIP." Those names were granted by others. Calvin never said to follow him.

Saying that Calvinists "follow" Calvin is a gross lie at the worst and a misunderstanding of the Bible at best.

Please, don't get me started on the doctrines of men.

I show no mercy on such.

[Some hope remaining.]

Tell you what. You find for me in the scriptures (Bible only) where it says that I should pray about the words of another man to see if they are true or not.

Glad to. He asked you to pray about some scriptures and you mock that. Here's my answer:

James 1:5-7
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

Wisdom to understand the scriptures is something well worth praying for.

[CCWoody]

Glad to. He asked you to pray about some scriptures and you mock that.... Wisdom to understand the scriptures is something well worth praying for.

Truly you don't understand that verse! James does not say pray about the scriptures. In order to believe that you must not even know the definitions of the words you are using:

Wisdom: The quality of being wise; knowledge, and the capacity to make due use of it

Understand: To have just and adequate ideas of; to apprehended the meaning or intention of; to have knowledge of; to comprehend; to know

Knowledge: The act or state of knowing; clear perception of fact, truth, or duty; certain apprehension; familiar cognizance; cognition.

Now, that you might "understand" that James is not teaching that we should pray about the truth of any man's words, you might figure out that James is saying something entirely different. Here, I'll help you out: James is teaching us that if any man does not have the capacity to make due use of what he already knows to be true then he should ask God.

Now, can you find me a single verse which teaches that I should pray about the words of another man to see if they are true or not? While you are vainly searching for that, can you find me a verse which teaches that I should pray about whether or not the Bible is true?

• Acts 17:11 ...and [the Bereans] searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.

[CCWoody]

There is a logical argument that can be made that calvinists do not think prayer can effectively change anything.

Sorry, dude, but you are the one who is teaching that man's 'free will' makes null and viod the promise of Jesus "that will I do" regarding prayers according the will of God. Have you figured out that by nullifying the Promises of God with free will you effectively strip nearly every Promise He ever made? Most likely not!

[xzins]

Tell you what. You find for me in the scriptures (Bible only) where it says that I should pray about the words of another man to see if they are true or not. Meanwhile, while you are vainly struggling to find that, I'll quote to directly from the word of God:

Attack, attack...misrepresent, misrepresent.

You were asked to pray about scripture not about my words.

Do you have problems praying about the correct interpretation of scripture?

[the_doc]

Many of today's Arminians are confused but genuine Christians. But the ones who get the most bent out of shape and accuse the Calvinists of dividing the Body of Christ are the ones who aren't regenerate in the first place.

[CCWoody]

You were asked to pray about scripture not about my words.

Do you have problems praying about the correct interpretation of scripture?

Ok xzins, did you want me to pray about the scriptures (your first sentence) or the intrepretation (your second sentence)?

BTW, have you ever asked your congregation to pray about your sermon on the scriptures? It's just a friendly bet I have with another FReeper!!!

[xzins]

You are partially correct, partially incorrect on both counts, Rn.

1. Appropriately, a wesley-arminian would pray that the Holy Spirit continue his convicting work with any sinner. In that sense we would pray for the Lord's salvation work on the indivdual. You are correct that we believe it is God's will that everyone have free choice and that God would not override His own will. But we firmly believe God works with folks to lovingly, unceasingly urge and convict them in the right direction.

2. It is true that calvinists pray for different folks to be saved. You are correct there. But I was also correct. The Westminster Confession, one of the bibles of calvinism, very clearly states that everyone who would ever exist had his fate completely and unalterably determined before the world was created. While a calvinist might pray for someone to be saved, it won't change a single thing since all things were predetermined. If that person was preselected to go to hell, that prayer won't matter a hill of beans with God.

[xzins]

I always ask my congregation to pray for God's guidance when reading, studying, listening to, etc. the scripture.

I asked you to pray about the "correct interpretation of scripture." Do you have a problem with praying about the "correct interpretation of scripture?"

Do you have anything scriptural to say about the discussion of limited atonement or irresistible grace?

[Some hope remaining.]

That's a pretty poor interpretation of that scripture. Perhaps you should pray about it.

[JohnnyM]

I would like to reiterate that I am not pointing the finger at those who espouse Calvin doctrine. It is directed at all who would divide Christ and His Church over the issue of interpretation/opinion, be they Arminian, Calvin, Baptist, or other.

JM

[B-Chan]

Whew. It's a great day to be Catholic...

Yours in Christian Fraternity,

B-chan

[fortheDeclaration]

You are partially correct, partially incorrect on both counts, Rn. 1. Appropriately, a wesley-arminian would pray that the Holy Spirit continue his convicting work with any sinner. In that sense we would pray for the Lord's salvation work on the indivdual. You are correct that we believe it is God's will that everyone have free choice and that God would not override His own will. But we firmly believe God works with folks to lovingly, unceasingly urge and convict them in the right direction.

Only in a system where our will is considered by God can prayer be an issue.

God wants us to come to Him as His children and ask Him for our desires. As long as those desires do not contradict God's own, He will answer those prayers.

Ye as and receive not because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts (Ja.4:3)

The fact is that God is moved by our prayers, which is an awesome thought.

The best works on prayer if you haven't already read them, is the life of George Mueller, and E.M.Bounds.

2. It is true that calvinists pray for different folks to be saved. You are correct there. But I was also correct. The Westminster Confession, one of the bibles of calvinism, very clearly states that everyone who would ever exist had his fate completely and unalterably determined before the world was created. While a calvinist might pray for someone to be saved, it won't change a single thing since all things were predetermined. If that person was preselected to go to hell, that prayer won't matter a hill of beans with God.

Since according to Calvinism our own will is never considered, since everything is Decreed according to God's own Will, prayer is but a meaningless ritual.

[CCWoody]

I asked you to pray about the "correct interpretation of scripture." Do you have a problem with praying about the "correct interpretation of scripture?"

You asked me to pray about your intrepretation of scripture; i.e. your man words. This is anti-Biblical as I have been demonstrating. Why do you want me to abandon the Bible and start praying about your man words? Are you getting ready to start a cult? This is exactly the kind of stuff they feed their deluded ones in order to brain wash them.

Do you have anything scriptural to say about the discussion of limited atonement or irresistible grace?

Yep! Since you Arminians teach that it is the expressed will of God that all men are saved, and since we know that Jesus has promised about prayers according to His will "that will I do", and since you Arminians tell me that if you were to pray according to the will of God for the salvation of all men that Jesus will not do that because 'free will' makes His promises null and void, where can I find this null and void clause in the Scriptures? Your unlimited Atonement, which can't be unlimited because you maintain you are not a Universalist, hangs on a scripture which shows me that the expressed Promises of Jesus are null and void!

[CCWoody]

Appropriately, a wesley-arminian would pray that the Holy Spirit continue his convicting work with any sinner. In that sense we would pray for the Lord's salvation work on the indivdual.

I guess you haven't been over here to see how Piper shreds your "Prevenient Grace" nonsense!

[RnMomof7]

1. Appropriately, a wesley-arminian would pray that the Holy Spirit continue his convicting work with any sinner. In that sense we would pray for the Lord's salvation work on the indivdual. You are correct that we believe it is God's will that everyone have free choice and that God would not override His own will. But we firmly believe God works with folks to lovingly, unceasingly urge and convict them in the right direction.

That would interfere with the FREE WIILL of man......how can you violate YOUR doctrine like that ? If you really believed what you preach you would not ask God to barge in on anothers free will.

IF God does that it is NOT a full free will choice..

You talk in circles..

God changes

God does not choose to control event

Salvation that is caused by any other means but Mans Free Will is forced on him..he is a puppet

So you have no business praying for God to override mans free will or to intervene in circumstances in a way that would influence them

You worship at the altar of mans will...bend you knee to baal and leave the God of creation to his nap..

[RnMomof7]

BTW, have you ever asked your congregation to pray about your sermon on the scriptures? It's just a friendly bet I have with another FReeper!!!

How come I was let out of that bet?

[RnMomof7]

:>)

[CCWoody]

How come I was let out of that bet?

Sorry, you didn't seem to be posting yesterday when xzins was "coming apart at the seams" with his pray about man words and pray on top of your Bible wierdness. Besides, there is hope that rdb3 and I being 5 hours apart might manage to come together in the near future and buy each othe a coke or something.

Ok, you can be the judge:

I always ask my congregation to pray for God's guidance when reading, studying, listening to, etc. the scripture. ~ xzins

Do you think that this is xzins' covert way of telling us that he does ask his congregation to pray about the truth of his man words without actually declaring to us openly that he does this?

Perhaps this is xzins' intrepretation of Acts 17:11 "And they prayed daily about what Paul and Silas were telling them to see if it was true. Therefore, many spiritual Tares were sown into the church...."

[ponyespresso]

BTW Hope an intersting historical sidelight..Joseph Smith was a Methodist like xzins..the Methodists teach the "strangly warmed heart'.......I suspect that is where Joseph got his "burning breast " belief from.

Joseph Smith was a Methodist in the same way the kid working a concession counter in a cinema is a movie star.