[narses]

Ping.

[Askel5]

Thank you, narses.

(Randy Engel is one of my heroes ... nice to see her mentioned.)

It's enough to make one weep.

[drstevej]

***"Participation through gestures and posture should be strongly encouraged in Masses with children with due regard for age and local custom."***

What's next? A mosh pit at mass for stoners? Macarena mass for the Latin Americans? Clogging masses for mountain folk?

Truth is stranger than fiction....

[HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity]

In 1964, the renowned British author Evelyn Waugh, disturbed by the "progressive" course adopted by Vatican II, lamented that proponents of change in the liturgy then being imposed had been "with us in parts of the U.S.A., and northern Europe for a generation. We had looked upon them as harmless cranks who were attempting to devise a charade of 2nd Century habits. We had confidence in the abiding Romanità of our Church. Suddenly we find the cranks in authority."

He may have had a point.

[american colleen]

I can almost understand the SSPX'ers when I read this kind of tragicomedy.

[DreamWeaver]

Hula Masses ? Why am I not surprised ? Not at all.

[livius]

...teaching and practices contrary to Sacred Tradition, the faithful are not bound to follow in blind obedience. In fact, the Catholics duty is to resist.

This article makes some very interesting points, one of which I have quoted. One of the almost-amusing things about Vatican II is that it seemed to believe it was discovering the role of individual conscience, which is often discussed by Vatican II fans: but only when said "conscience" is in opposition to Church doctrines and traditional practice. An informed conscience that supports traditional doctrine and resists deformations of practice immediately makes one liable to charges of "disobedience" and schism.

What modernists laud is a totally Zeitgeist-controlled, uninformed and subjective "conscience" that rejects Catholic teaching on everything from abortion to the Real Presence, or permits any and all manner of liturgical atrocity simply because some deluded bishop somewhere has said it's okay with him.

Many, many lay Catholics were violently opposed to the liturgical changes, the destruction of their churches and the corruption of theology. But we were slapped down by Modernist bishops who announced that we, who were, after all, adhering to centuries of tradition, were being disobedient by not wanting to accept what had been dreamed up two weeks before at some politically-motivated bishops' council.

It seems to me, however, that things are beginning to change. The pressure of people who have remained faithful to tradition is beginning to be felt - for one thing, the rest of the Church is busy self-destructing - and I think that we are going to see significant changes in the not too distant future.

[jackd]

Very lengthy, informative and extremely opinionated. There are just as many articles and precedents that can be argued FOR Vatican II and the reforms. Catholicism cannot teach to the old, exclusively. The Catholic Church was reaching a point of diminishing returns (in terms of regular affiliation) by the 1960's. Something had to be done to reinforce the message of Jesus to the young and the old in the world. The Mass, as you have pointed out is a celebration. This celebration is of one basic fact: it is a celebration of the LAST SUPPER. It is a dinner, people are invited to eat the Body and Blood of Christ. THAT alone is the distinguishing characteristic of Catholicism. No other Church recognizes that fact. ANYTHING else is fluff and feathers. If Hawaiians want to Hula, if Americans want a Folk Mass,if filipinos want Latin music, that is fine as long as the Mass remains focused on the fundamental precept of the celebration of Christ (the Messiah) being present at every Mass in Body and Blood. All the rest is bells and whistles.

We are invited to dinner with Jesus. Anything that takes place surrounding that fact is merely ceremonial and ornamental. The Council of Trent was the confirmation of transubstantiation. Nothing has changed that fundamental fact. When that is challenged we are no longer Catholics. That is as "they" say , "What sepatates the wheat from the chaff."

[NYer]

This may be one time where you and the Calvinists on this forum have something in common!

I had the privilege of attending mass at a catholic church on the island of Maui, 12 years ago. The mass is referred to as the Hawaiian Mass (not hula mass). The female members of the choir wore beautiful dresses, made from local fabrics with leis around their necks. Sorry, no grass skirts with coconut cups.

The choir sang from the choir loft which is in the rear of the church. One would have to do an about face to actually see them. They say certain prayers and sing some hymns, in their native tongue of Samoan, and will often use "sacred gesture". This is done after Communion, in a very reverential manner.

Cynthia Kupau of Maryknoll High School demonstrates hula in worship as she expresses the "Our Father" prayer, using sacred gesture.

"The first Christians here, the Calvinists, made us feel shame. They believe that the hula is lascivious, it doesn't belong in the house of the Lord."

Kim said: "Theology is the explanation of faith coming out of a cultural context. So if you get theology out of Western Europe ... into a Pacific Island culture, it is not going to fully translate." People who think never the twain shall meet might reflect on the fact that "Jesus was born into a cultural context: He was a Semitic Jew, not a European."

Kim has discussed liturgical use of hula with purists who object that "Hawaiian culture is being taken out of context. They are afraid that Hawaiian culture is going to be usurped, be taken over by Christianity. A lot of Hawaiians blame Christians for the overthrow of the queen, so for them it is offensive.

"Yes, if we are Christian, we only believe in one God," Kim said. "So do I believe in Pele? Not as a goddess. She is an ancestor." A Christian Hawaiian need not discount beliefs in gods and aumakua, he said. "We could look at them, we can see aspects of them in the one true God.

[Fithal the Wise]

The key elements of partaking worthily are self examination and discernment of the Lord's body. It does not appear that the post Vatican II novelties are in accord with these requirements.

1 Corinthians 11:25-34

For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation* to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

For if we would judge* ourselves, we should not be judged*.

But when we are judged*, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned** with the world.

Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another.

And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation*. And the rest will I set in order when I come.


* Greek krima = judgment - not necessarily katakrima = permanent judgment

** Greek katakrino = be permanently judged

[Gumlegs]

Bless me father, for I have spin ...

[Voltage]

I don't even know where you could get hula hoops nowdays!

[sspxsteph]

,
May I say these statements he placed above is why the SSPX are around. The SSPX is not special just because they offer the Latin Mass which is the same that it has been for hundreds of years, but because the priest live and breath the whole entirety of the Latin mass and all the traditions of the church. Even the smallest actions represent what the Church has been for her many years of existence until after VII. They are against corruption and want the church to survive.

SSPX is afraid of all the liberals which are sadly corrupting our Church. I pray that we are able to find all of those higher Cardinals and Bishops who are corrupting our Holy Catholic Church today and put a end to all this evil. We must pray for the spiritual intentions of the pope JPII. I am sure he needs our prayers.

quae tibi offerimus pro Ecclesia tua sancta catholica; quam pacificare, cutodire, adunare, er regere digneris toto orbe terrarum: una cum famulo tuo Papa noster, et omnibus orthodoxis, atque catholicae et apostolicae fifei cultoribus. ( Second half of prayer to the church; first part of canon.)

In Jesu et Maria

[Dajjal]

I think the question is whether the Roman Rite has a solemn ritual, which has matured through the centuries, and which embodies the dogmas of the Catholic faith...?

... or does it have a shifting outline of a ceremony, which changes day in and day out, depending upon the charism of the Presider, and of the various music ministers, lectors, readers, extraordinary ministers, etc., not to forget that moment's voyage into inculturation?

[LadyDoc]

What is a "hula mass"?

I once saw a Catholic conservative magazine condemn "polka masses" and later in the same article "masses where Indians wailed songs".

Well, when I went to a "polka mass", I found it merely had Polish folk song hymns sung instead of the usual US music: no polkas at all, merely polish songs.

And the "wailing" was merely hymns sung in the tradition of Lakota singing in the local language.

Similarly, in Africa, they used hymns sung in the tradition of African music, and in the joyful seasons, people danced with joy, usually at the end of Mass. This would be absurd in the English tradition, but there was no blasphemy.

So if "hula masses" means that American tourists watch semi naked white Hawaiians dance at mass, forget it. But if it means that in an area of native Hawaiians they sing traditional music, with dancing at the end of the ceremony, then it's really nothing to worry about.

[St.Chuck]

bump for later. If you post something I've got to check it for it's veracity.