Vatican Approves Hula Masses

Catholic Family News ^ | March 1999 | John Vennari

[patent]

Where, pray tell, did I even mention the SSPX?

You didn’t. Does that mean I can’t ask the question, or can’t bring it up? Are you sympathetic the SSPX?

Which Bishop or group is the parish you attend affiliated with?

You don’t have to answer, of course, but I will ask things from time to time. This is a discussion.

patent  +AMDG

[narses]

"ANYTHING else is fluff and feathers."

I disagree. In South Africa the heretical there are introducing blood sacrifice as part of their "inculturation". Having pagan prayers intertwined with Christian prayers is NOT appropriate, in my view and my understanding of the liturgical norms.

BTW, for the sake of the Inquisition here, any view I post that is in opposition to the Magisterium of the Church, the Cathechism or Dogmatic Councils and Dogmas of the Church reflect my ignorance and not my opposition to the Church and I invite those (like patent) who find my errors to please help educate me.

[narses]

Thank you. I didn't understand patents post to be dissenting from tradition or dogma. I read it as an assault on my honesty and motives. Perhaps I misread him, perhaps you did, but I appreciate your words. Thank you.

BTW, my motives here are to learn and discuss the Faith, not to attack other people here. I regret if my posts are being read as attacks, they are surely not intended as such.

[Mike Fieschko]

I guess it depends on how one defines "celebration." If Hawaiians want to Hula, if Americans want a Folk Mass,if filipinos want Latin music... does not fit my definition of a celebration of Christ's sacrifice. IMHO, the Real Presence deserves more reverence and respect.

I was surprised that 'celebrate' is defined as

1 : to perform (a sacrament or solemn ceremony) publicly and with appropriate rites

2 a : to honor (as a holiday) by solemn ceremonies or by refraining from ordinary business
b : to mark (as an anniversary) by festivities or other deviation from routine

3 : to hold up or play up for public notice

intransitive senses

1 : to observe a holiday, perform a religious ceremony, or take part in a festival

2 : to observe a notable occasion with festivities

There's a dissonance between the dictionary definition and common usage, IMO. Common usage would allow 'celebration' to include birthday parties for 4 year olds, sweet sixteen parties, bridal showers, college fraternity initiations, weddings, etc., and would not include funerals (but would include wakes).

Once upon a time, I had a disagreement with a priest over his frequent and close to exclusive description of Mass as a 'celebration', and I apologized to him after I looked up the definition.

[ELS]

The Church has a living Magisterium, ELS.

Is that like the living and breathing Constitution the liberals talk about? ;-)

The Council of Trent was a dogmatic council and the ideas of St. Thomas Aquinas have defended the Catholic faith from many attacks over the centuries. It is true that St. Thomas had some ideas that were inaccurate given the scientific knowledge we have today. But his Summa Theologica overall is a great defense of the faith. One of the Modernists' tactics has been to not teach Aquinas in the seminaries.

Pope St. Pius X, in his encyclical Pascendi Dominici Gregis condemns Modernism and illustrates its errors. I still stand by my statement that given a choice between the Council of Trent or St. Thomas Aquinas vs. something proposed by a Modernist (read heretic), I will follow the Council of Trent or St. Thomas Aquinas. We are discussing Communion in the hand, not predestination or dancing at weddings. AFAIK, the "modernism in the 1400's" of which you speak is not the same Modernism of which I speak.

Communion in the hand is a discipline associated with the New Mass. As Fr. Baker, SJ said at the first Tridentine Mass at Holy Rosary Church in many years, one can't mix rites and in the Tridentine Rite during Communion one kneels and receives on the tongue. Am I not allowed to be critical of a discipline? I am critical of it not because it is associated with the New Mass, but because I see it as a potential for much mischief (read sacrilege). I am not questioning the intent of the vast majority of communicants who receive Communion in the hand, but rather those who saw this as an opportunity to more easily desecrate the Real Presence.

[NYer]

This may be one time where you and the Calvinists on this forum have something in common!

I had the privilege of attending mass at a catholic church on the island of Maui, 12 years ago. The mass is referred to as the Hawaiian Mass (not hula mass). The female members of the choir wore beautiful dresses, made from local fabrics with leis around their necks. Sorry, no grass skirts with coconut cups.

The choir sang from the choir loft which is in the rear of the church. One would have to do an about face to actually see them. They say certain prayers and sing some hymns, in their native tongue of Samoan, and will often use "sacred gesture". This is done after Communion, in a very reverential manner.

Cynthia Kupau of Maryknoll High School demonstrates hula in worship as she expresses the "Our Father" prayer, using sacred gesture.

"The first Christians here, the Calvinists, made us feel shame. They believe that the hula is lascivious, it doesn't belong in the house of the Lord."

Kim said: "Theology is the explanation of faith coming out of a cultural context. So if you get theology out of Western Europe ... into a Pacific Island culture, it is not going to fully translate." People who think never the twain shall meet might reflect on the fact that "Jesus was born into a cultural context: He was a Semitic Jew, not a European."

Kim has discussed liturgical use of hula with purists who object that "Hawaiian culture is being taken out of context. They are afraid that Hawaiian culture is going to be usurped, be taken over by Christianity. A lot of Hawaiians blame Christians for the overthrow of the queen, so for them it is offensive.

"Yes, if we are Christian, we only believe in one God," Kim said. "So do I believe in Pele? Not as a goddess. She is an ancestor." A Christian Hawaiian need not discount beliefs in gods and aumakua, he said. "We could look at them, we can see aspects of them in the one true God.

[Fithal the Wise]

The key elements of partaking worthily are self examination and discernment of the Lord's body. It does not appear that the post Vatican II novelties are in accord with these requirements.

1 Corinthians 11:25-34

For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation* to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

For if we would judge* ourselves, we should not be judged*.

But when we are judged*, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned** with the world.

Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another.

And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation*. And the rest will I set in order when I come.


* Greek krima = judgment - not necessarily katakrima = permanent judgment

** Greek katakrino = be permanently judged

[Antoninus]

Hmmm, that's the second "the Pope is corrupt/weak" article you've posted in as many days. Tell us, are you a sedevacantist?

[Antoninus]

One eastern USA Diocese advertises for vocations on MTV. Or at least used to.

That would be Providence, RI, I believe.

[Domestic Church]

"Once the Pope clarified some things and issued the final version Ottaviani repudiated that intervention. "

Thank you for mentioning this as it is not well known.

[Antoninus]

Well we could accept that you read minds or you could accept the stated reasons I posted it. You choose to call me a liar. How uncharitable.

Funny, for a guy who claims not to want to fight, you sure have the lingo and tactics down pat. Hmmm....

[Domestic Church]

St. Basil the Great, Doctor of the Church (330-379) "The right to receive Holy Communion in the hand is permitted only in times of persecution."

Many would say we are under persecution. I recall Fr. Hardon writing much about the Church and the Domestic Church being under attack.

[HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity]

if Americans want a Folk Mass 26 posted on 7/9/02 7:04 AM Pacific by jackd

A lot of us "Americans" DON'T WANT a "folk Mass." There's a basic problem with the line of reasoning that just because there is nothing essentially or substantially wrong with something, that, therefore, it must happen if a minority faction controlling the "liturgy committee" or "music ministry" decide so. Or even if the pastor has outrageous bad taste, all of the sudden the Mass becomes the liturgical equivalent of Godspell, Hair, or Jesus Christ, Superstar. A lot of Catholic Americans do not culturally identify with counter-cultural tendencies, with New Agey folk music, or this "Go Tell It on the Mountain" hand-clapping, giddy revivalism overtaking some parishes. If people want to become Baptists or Church of the Happy Consciousness types worshipping that way, there are plenty of non-Catholic denominations that cater to those tastes.

[HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity]

Plus all the smarmy felt banners replacing the beautiful statues... 27 posted on 7/9/02 7:21 AM Pacific by american colleen

You remember those, too. It may very well be the case that bad taste in music, art, or vestments do not alter the validity of the sacraments. That's all very well and good. That much Catholic theology...I do understand. But, I mean, really, just because the Mass remains valid EVEN IF the priest wears purple bellbottoms, that's no reason to put us all through the ordeal. Common sense and good taste may not alter the validity or lack thereof of the Mass, but they are a great comfort to see in Catholic priests and laity.

[Gumlegs]

Bless me father, for I have spin ...

[HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity]

Any plans for a Frisbee Mass?

[Gumlegs]

It's already part of the Hula Mass.

[HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity]

"Hula" theology? Will there be a class on this at Georgetown or Notre Dame?

[NYer]

If people want to become Baptists or Church of the Happy Consciousness types worshipping that way, there are plenty of non-Catholic denominations that cater to those tastes.

Okay, what about the Black Catholic liturgical music? Like the Hawaiians, the African Black Catholics have "inculturated" the mass throughout Africa.

Here in America, it is interesting to note that there are 20 million black catholics (US, Haiti, Dominican Republic)and more than 200 million worldwide.

Consider the following comments by Elliot Wimbush, a master cantor and musician.

Catholic liturgical music has been criticized for being so slow to change or welcome different elements or song writing structures. It’s not like Methodist services where folks have been listening to Amy Grant for over 10 years.

WIMBUSH: Because Vatican documents are so specific as to what music should or shouldn’t sound like in the context of liturgy, it really is confining.

In a book I’m working on called "Breaking the Bonds of Liturgy" talks about how we should use liturgy as a platform to praise, not as the cage in which we put it. A lot of the things that we do in liturgy don’t lend themselves to the free expression of praise.

If we are doing a song for the offertory in some parishes, once the priest washes his hands, I don’t care where you are in the song, it’s over. You stop. But if you’re doing a song that is beginning to resonate and the assembly is really beginning to sing, we need to let them sing.

If I understand liturgy correctly, and I think I do, liturgy is about the work of the people and about the prayer of the people being united in body. That’s what happens in the Mass. So anything we can do to promote it, to encourage it, to nurture it, to pull it out, then that’s what we need to do. Anything that minimizes it, that truncates it for the sake of scheduling, is something we need to revisit.

To keep our distinct religious traditions alive, the use of Kente cloth, gospel music, and African drumbeats are not sufficient. These external material signs of culture must be transformed into sacraments of a deeper consciousness of our collective sojourn and communion with God and one another, which is at the root of our distinct African American spirituality.

As Catholic Christian followers of Christ each of us is called to engage in the evangelizing and liberating mission of the Catholic Church as it seeks to transform itself and in a manner which conforms with Jesus' preaching of the reign of God. In other words "We are summoned by the Holy Spirit and called to New Life".

[Gumlegs]

The official varsity sport of the Theology Department!