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To: patent
The Church has a living Magisterium, ELS.

Is that like the living and breathing Constitution the liberals talk about? ;-)

The Council of Trent was a dogmatic council and the ideas of St. Thomas Aquinas have defended the Catholic faith from many attacks over the centuries. It is true that St. Thomas had some ideas that were inaccurate given the scientific knowledge we have today. But his Summa Theologica overall is a great defense of the faith. One of the Modernists' tactics has been to not teach Aquinas in the seminaries.

Pope St. Pius X, in his encyclical Pascendi Dominici Gregis condemns Modernism and illustrates its errors. I still stand by my statement that given a choice between the Council of Trent or St. Thomas Aquinas vs. something proposed by a Modernist (read heretic), I will follow the Council of Trent or St. Thomas Aquinas. We are discussing Communion in the hand, not predestination or dancing at weddings. AFAIK, the "modernism in the 1400's" of which you speak is not the same Modernism of which I speak.

Communion in the hand is a discipline associated with the New Mass. As Fr. Baker, SJ said at the first Tridentine Mass at Holy Rosary Church in many years, one can't mix rites and in the Tridentine Rite during Communion one kneels and receives on the tongue. Am I not allowed to be critical of a discipline? I am critical of it not because it is associated with the New Mass, but because I see it as a potential for much mischief (read sacrilege). I am not questioning the intent of the vast majority of communicants who receive Communion in the hand, but rather those who saw this as an opportunity to more easily desecrate the Real Presence.

45 posted on 07/09/2002 9:51:54 AM PDT by ELS
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To: ELS
The Church has a living Magisterium, ELS.
Is that like the living and breathing Constitution the liberals talk about? ;-)
I guess I have a problem with comparing the Magisterium Christ left on earth to guide his faithful with the liberal interpretation of the Constitution. It almost makes it sound like you don’t believe in the Church’s indefectibility.
One of the Modernists' tactics has been to not teach Aquinas in the seminaries.
True, and we would both agree that it should be taught.
I still stand by my statement that given a choice between the Council of Trent or St. Thomas Aquinas vs. something proposed by a Modernist (read heretic), I will follow the Council of Trent or St. Thomas Aquinas.
First, you do one of two things. You either present two false choices and ignore the true one, or you consider the current Magisterium to be heretical. As I see it we have three choices.
(1) We can follow our understanding of Trent (which is part of the Magisterial teachings) and Aquinas (which is not and has no binding authority or guarantee from God it is correct). If we take this choice there is no difference between us and the Orthodox. They follow several Ecumenical Councils as well, but they are schismatic and do not possess the full truth.

(2) We can follow the modernist heretics like call to action, etc.

(3) We can follow the current hierarchy and Magisterium, e.g., the Pope.

I chose the third. You seem to be choosing the first over the third, following Trent but not following the Pope. I see this as a false choice. Trent is not the Magisterium, it is merely one part of it, albeit an important part. Now, that leaves unanswered whether you consider there to be three choices or just two. If you consider the Pope a heretical modernist, then choices 2 and 3 collapse into the same choice. Is this your view? If so, you are all but claiming the Church Magisterium has fallen into heresy, and that the Church is not indefectible. The Pope has issued many formal teachings in the Catechism, and in issuing the Mass. If you reject these as heresy, he has preached heresy, and the Church has fallen.
We are discussing Communion in the hand, not predestination or dancing at weddings.
You consider whether Communion is received in the hand or mouth more important than how we are saved? I’m giving a couple parallels, but I don’t see a reason for rejecting them.
Am I not allowed to be critical of a discipline?
It depends on a number of things, such as how you are critical, disobedience, scandal, schism, and things like that. A couple thoughts from Aquinas:

Whether subjects are bound to obey their superiors in all things?

Objection 1. It seems that subjects are bound to obey their superiors in all things. For the Apostle says (Col. 3:20): "Children, obey your parents in all things," and farther on (Col. 3:22): "Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh." Therefore in like manner other subjects are bound to obey their superiors in all things.

Objection 2. Further, superiors stand between God and their subjects, according to Dt. 5:5, "I was the mediator and stood between the Lord and you at that time, to show you His words." Now there is no going from extreme to extreme, except through that which stands between. Therefore the commands of a superior must be esteemed the commands of God, wherefore the Apostle says (Gal. 4:14): "You . . . received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus" and (1 Thess. 2:13): "When you had received of us the word of the hearing of God, you received it, not as the word of men, but, as it is indeed, the word of God." Therefore as man is bound to obey God in all things, so is he bound to obey his superiors.

Objection 3. Further, just as religious in making their profession take vows of chastity and poverty, so do they also vow obedience. Now a religious is bound to observe chastity and poverty in all things. Therefore he is also bound to obey in all things.

On the contrary, It is written (Acts 5:29): "We ought to obey God rather than men." Now sometimes the things commanded by a superior are against God. Therefore superiors are not to be obeyed in all things.

I answer that, As stated above (A1,4), he who obeys is moved at the bidding of the person who commands him, by a certain necessity of justice, even as a natural thing is moved through the power of its mover by a natural necessity. That a natural thing be not moved by its mover, may happen in two ways. First, on account of a hindrance arising from the stronger power of some other mover; thus wood is not burnt by fire if a stronger force of water intervene. Secondly, through lack of order in the movable with regard to its mover, since, though it is subject to the latter's action in one respect, yet it is not subject thereto in every respect. Thus, a humor is sometimes subject to the action of heat, as regards being heated, but not as regards being dried up or consumed. On like manner there are two reasons, for which a subject may not be bound to obey his superior in all things. First on account of the command of a higher power. For as a gloss says on Rm. 13:2, "They that resist [Vulg.: 'He that resisteth'] the power, resist the ordinance of God" (cf. St. Augustine, De Verb. Dom. viii). "If a commissioner issue an order, are you to comply, if it is contrary to the bidding of the proconsul? Again if the proconsul command one thing, and the emperor another, will you hesitate, to disregard the former and serve the latter? Therefore if the emperor commands one thing and God another, you must disregard the former and obey God." Secondly, a subject is not bound to obey his superior if the latter command him to do something wherein he is not subject to him. For Seneca says (De Beneficiis iii): "It is wrong to suppose that slavery falls upon the whole man: for the better part of him is excepted." His body is subjected and assigned to his master but his soul is his own. Consequently in matters touching the internal movement of the will man is not bound to obey his fellow-man, but God alone.

Nevertheless man is bound to obey his fellow-man in things that have to be done externally by means of the body: and yet, since by nature all men are equal, he is not bound to obey another man in matters touching the nature of the body, for instance in those relating to the support of his body or the begetting of his children. Wherefore servants are not bound to obey their masters, nor children their parents, in the question of contracting marriage or of remaining in the state of virginity or the like. But in matters concerning the disposal of actions and human affairs, a subject is bound to obey his superior within the sphere of his authority; for instance a soldier must obey his general in matters relating to war, a servant his master in matters touching the execution of the duties of his service, a son his father in matters relating to the conduct of his life and the care of the household; and so forth.

Reply to Objection 1. When the Apostle says "in all things," he refers to matters within the sphere of a father's or master's authority.

Reply to Objection 2. Man is subject to God simply as regards all things, both internal and external, wherefore he is bound to obey Him in all things. On the other hand, inferiors are not subject to their superiors in all things, but only in certain things and in a particular way, in respect of which the superior stands between God and his subjects, whereas in respect of other matters the subject is immediately under God, by Whom he is taught either by the natural or by the written law.

Reply to Objection 3. Religious profess obedience as to the regular mode of life, in respect of which they are subject to their superiors: wherefore they are bound to obey in those matters only which may belong to the regular mode of life, and this obedience suffices for salvation. If they be willing to obey even in other matters, this will belong to the superabundance of perfection; provided, however, such things be not contrary to God or to the rule they profess, for obedience in this case would be unlawful.

Accordingly we may distinguish a threefold obedience; one, sufficient for salvation, and consisting in obeying when one is bound to obey: secondly, perfect obedience, which obeys in all things lawful: thirdly, indiscreet obedience, which obeys even in matters unlawful.

And:

Accordingly schismatics properly so called are those who, wilfully and intentionally separate themselves from the unity of the Church; for this is the chief unity, and the particular unity of several individuals among themselves is subordinate to the unity of the Church, even as the mutual adaptation of each member of a natural body is subordinate to the unity of the whole body. Now the unity of the Church consists in two things; namely, in the mutual connection or communion of the members of the Church, and again in the subordination of all the members of the Church to the one head, according to Col. 2:18,19: "Puffed up by the sense of his flesh, and not holding the Head, from which the whole body, by joints and bands, being supplied with nourishment and compacted, groweth unto the increase of God." Now this Head is Christ Himself, Whose viceregent in the Church is the Sovereign Pontiff. Wherefore schismatics are those who refuse to submit to the Sovereign Pontiff, and to hold communion with those members of the Church who acknowledge his supremacy.

patent

110 posted on 07/10/2002 3:20:17 PM PDT by patent
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