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To: Siobhan; american colleen; sinkspur; Aliska; Lady In Blue; Salvation; Polycarp; narses; ...
Lay people were brought into the sanctuary to do the readings, lead the music and distribute Holy Communion. Communion was given in people’s hands while they were standing. It seemed the priest was not so special anymore. Friday abstinence was dropped; the Communion fast shortened to one hour and fasting during Lent, Ember Days and certain vigils was eliminated. Mixed marriages, with permission, could be witnessed by a Protestant minister in his church. Theologians were telling us that the Church would change its ban on artificial birth control. It seemed that everything was changing: up was down, down was up and what was wrong now seemed to be right.

Unless you lived through this experience, it is impossible to understand. It was too much, and too sudden ... perhaps smaller changes, gradually phased in might have worked better. It is my contention, and I am hoping someone in the catholic forum group can provide some historical background, that the liberal wing whispered in the ear of Pope John XXIII & Paul VI, that change was necessary to keep up with the times (or words to that effect).

I was a student in a catholic school at the time. The school year ended with nuns in habits but when we returned in the September, many of them were attired in street clothes. As young girls, we were happy that the nuns could doff those heavey drapes; however, our "view" of Sr. Mary Holy Card changed. The respect was still there but the "aura" of mystery that surrounded her was gone.

From one week to the next, dramatic changes occurred. The churches had to order new altars in order to comply with the about face rule. The Tabernacle was moved to a side altar. Fasting from midnight on Saturday was reduced to 1 hour (though I expect many people don't even bother with that anymore). The "biggie" was communion in the hand. Only one week earlier, we knelt (in total respect) at the communion rail. If a host fell to the ground - everything stopped!!! Only the priest could touch the host. Now, ladies with heavily perfumed fingers were dipping their hands into chalices to distribute communion.

The music ministry changed ... where once we listened to Pangea Lingua sung by angelic-voiced choirs, to the accompaniment of an organ ... it was now "Amazing Grace" strummed by a guitarist. I distinctly remember turning to my mother and asking her why we were singing protestant songs?

Most importantly, the role of the priest was forever altered. (This was addressed on a different thread last week). The high Holy Mass shriveled up and eventually disappeared.

This priest was as much a victim of Vatican II as all of us. The priesthood that he signed on to was taken away from him, through no fault of his own. The seeds planted by Vatican II have now ripened on the tree; most of the fruit is rotten. We are all paying the price for those changes. A great deception was perpetrated on catholics, both the pious and not so devout.

11 posted on 07/08/2002 3:48:36 AM PDT by NYer
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To: NYer
One more major change was in the clerical vestments. This is how a priest used to vest ... Read these prayers. I wonder if any of these are still said today.

Vesting Prayers

When washing the hands:

Da, Domine, virtutem manibus meis ad abstergendum omnem maculam ut sine pollutione mentis et corporis valeam tibi servire.

Give virtue to my hands, O Lord, that being cleansed from all stain I might serve you with purity of mind and body.

With the amice:

Impone, Domine, capiti meo galeam salutis, ad expugnandos diabolicos incursus.

Place upon me, O Lord, the helmet of salvation, that I may overcome the assaults of the devil.

With the alb:

Dealba me, Domine, et munda cor meum; ut, in sanguine Agni dealbatus, gaudiis perfruare sempiternis.

Purify me, O Lord, and cleanse my heart; that, being made white in the Blood of the Lamb, I may come to eternal joy.

With the cincture:

Praecinge me, Domine, cingulo puritatis, et exstingue in lumbis meis humorem libidinis; ut maneat in me virtus continentia et castitatis.

Gird me, O Lord, with the girdle of purity, and extinguish in me all evil desires, that the virtue of chastity may abide in me.

With the maniple:

Merear, Domine, portare manipulum fletus et doloris; ut cum exsultatione recipiam mercedem laboris.

Grant, O Lord, that I may so bear the maniple of weeping and sorrow, that I may receive the reward for my labors with rejoicing.

With the stole:

Redde mihi, Domine, stolam immortalitatis, quam perdidi in praevaricatione primi parentis: et, quamvis indignus accedo ad tuum sacrum mysterium, merear tamen gaudium sempiternum.

Restore unto me, O Lord, the stole of immortality, which was lost through the guilt of our first parents: and, although I am unworthy to approach Your sacred Mysteries, nevertheless grant unto me eternal joy.

With the chasuble:

Domine, qui dixisti: Iugum meam suave est et onus meum leve: fac, ut istud portare sic valeam, quod consequar tuam gratiam. Amen.

O Lord, Who said: My yoke is easy and My burden light: grant that I may bear it well and follow after You with thanksgiving. Amen.

12 posted on 07/08/2002 3:55:48 AM PDT by NYer
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To: NYer
That was so poignant. I grew up in the 60's and witnessed much of what you recount. The priest who taught me to serve the Tridentine Mass was laicized and married in about 1970. He eventually got the marriage annulled and was allowed to return to the priesthood, but is stationed in another country. The smoke of Satan, as Paul VI observed, really did enter the vestibule of the Church.
14 posted on 07/08/2002 6:23:09 AM PDT by Brices Crossroads
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To: NYer
American popular culture was changing radically at the same time.

That Vatican II hit the Church at the same time as the aggressive counter-culture in America and the social convulsions of the 1960s was significant. The changes in manners and mores, in fashion, in sexual morality - all of this had an impact on the Church as well. It is similar to what happened to colleges and universities, they were captured by a liberal mentality which lasts to this day. The Church, universities, the Democratic Party, the entertainment industry, the media, all of these institutions embodied and instutionalized radical liberal culture in ways which have lasted to the present day even though many Americans reject the mentality and ideology. Study the counter-culture and the social processes and transformations of American culture during the 1960s and you find a lot of things which changed the Church above and beyond the documents of the council.

18 posted on 07/08/2002 9:00:50 AM PDT by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: NYer
I can sympathize with you. I was a little older, but not much, when the changes went into effect, and I am still stunned at how rapidly everything happened and how many things simply collapsed overnight because their structure was taken away.

I think a lot of people collapsed, too, and I suspect that priests were especially hard hit. I remember living in a parish in San Francisco where one year we had three decent priests in the parish, and the next year we had one alcoholic pastor who never left his room, one probably gay young assistant who used to smoke dope in front of the church with the local teenagers, and a slightly older assistant who was carrying on a very public affair with a woman he had met when he was saying her husband's funeral mass. The three decent priests had morphed into something nearly unrecognizeable.

I think the changes in the Mass were responsible for it all. Not the changes in the form alone, but the changes in its significance, whether this was made explicit or not. Suddenly, the priest was not a priest, offering sacrifice; he was simply the guy chairing the meeting. I think it really must have been like having one's entire world swept away, not by persecution and outside forces, but seemingly by the very Church that built that world. The only thing that amazes me is that any faithful priests managed to survive.
21 posted on 07/08/2002 10:12:23 AM PDT by livius
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To: NYer
"Unless you lived through this experience, it is impossible to understand. It was too much, and too sudden ... perhaps smaller changes, gradually phased in might have worked better."

Been there too, NYer, made my First Communion at St. Al's in Great Neck during the last days of the Latin Mass and then watched from a child's eye all that you mentioned occur and the scandel of a Priest leaving for marriage with one of my teachers(RSM.) Very strange days indeed. Being a child during this left a different kind of emotional wound as the local Mother Church became dysfunctional in some regards.
22 posted on 07/08/2002 10:39:15 AM PDT by Domestic Church
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