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1 posted on 07/05/2002 10:14:23 AM PDT by Polycarp
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To: Siobhan; JMJ333; Domestic Church; Dumb_Ox; Aquinasfan; maryz; SoothingDave; Aunt Polgara; ...
ping...
2 posted on 07/05/2002 10:15:34 AM PDT by Polycarp
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To: Polycarp
To paraphrase another poster from a previous thread, " How dare you start this thread with all them Biblical quotes in your post? I know that must be real irritating to persons who have no tradition beyond their own personal interpretation (which we know has no prophecy)!"

3 posted on 07/05/2002 11:23:06 AM PDT by FormerLib
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To: Polycarp
Excellent ! Irrefutable!
5 posted on 07/05/2002 4:05:42 PM PDT by Litany
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To: Polycarp; *Catholic_list; afraidfortherepublic; Antoninus; Aquinasfan; Askel5; livius; ...
Outstanding piece, thanks for posting it.
6 posted on 07/06/2002 6:13:42 AM PDT by narses
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To: Polycarp
Thanks Polycarp. I really enjoyed the post. I'm wondering why no Protestant has posted here in refutation of the original post. I wouldn't want to see a heated debate or anything, but I would like to understand why non-Catholics do not believe in confession as it is commanded in the Bible. Do you know what the Ortodox believe?

Confession and Communion are the two most wonderful gifts that we, as Catholics (and I suspect Orthodox), have.

7 posted on 07/06/2002 12:44:14 PM PDT by american colleen
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To: Polycarp
John 20:23

In this verse Chirst only enjoins the apostles in His name to PROCLAIM the forgiveness of sins which is through the blood of Jesus Christ only.

Nowhere in the Book of Acts or in the Episles do we find any instance of an apostle remittng the sins of anyone. The do go everywhere, proclaiming the forgiveness of sins.

Even God cannot just arbitrarily forgive sins. Forgivenss of sins is only through the blood of Jesus Christ.

Back in the OT the forgivess of sins was based on people believing that a Messiah was coming who would come and die for their sins and the sins would be removed forever. Today sins are forgiven when we believe the the Messiah has already come and paid the price for our sins.

Becky

12 posted on 07/07/2002 6:31:14 AM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: Polycarp
How about this passage?

Mark 9:42 "But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea."

Well, I hope Michelle's boyfriend can straighten her out when she gets home.

45 posted on 07/08/2002 8:55:57 AM PDT by Right_Wing_Mole_In_Seattle
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To: Polycarp
Excellent apologetics scenario.

Another fact:
All of you, please stop and talk to your priest and ask him to say the words of absolution slowly for you.

The power invoked in the absolution and forgiveness of sins is not a human power (priestly power), but rather the power of God/Jesus Christ.

I cannot remember the exact words, but maybe someone could post them.

48 posted on 07/08/2002 9:25:49 AM PDT by Salvation
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To: Polycarp
Now show the context of 1 Peter 2:5, 9. When St. Peter teaches us about the universal priesthood of all believers, he refers to Exodus 19:6 where God speaks of ancient Israel as "a kingdom of priests and a holy nation," a reference to the universal priesthood in the Old Testament "church." But this did not preclude the existence of the Aaronic and Levitical priesthoods within that universal priesthood (cf. Ex. 28 and Num. 3:1-12).

In an analogous way, we have a universal "royal priesthood" in the New Testament, but we also have an ordained clergy who have priestly authority given to them by Christ to carry out His ministry of reconciliation (cf. 2 Cor. 5:17-21, John 20:21-23, James 5:16).

This is an analogy that you cannot draw. First of all, look at the context of Exodus 19:6

Exodus 19 3And Moses went up to God, and the LORD called to him from the mountain, saying, "Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel: 4"You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings and brought you to Myself. 5Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine. 6And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel."

Verse 6 is future tense and is a condition of the covenant. Was it ever realized in Old Testament Israel? We learn later on that Isreal doesn't keep the covenant.

Jeremiah 11 9And the LORD said to me, "A conspiracy has been found among the men of Judah and among the inhabitants of Jerusalem. 10They have turned back to the iniquities of their forefathers who refused to hear My words, and they have gone after other gods to serve them; the house of Israel and the house of Judah have broken My covenant which I made with their fathers."

Jeremiah 31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- 32not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,[1] says the LORD. 33But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Jeremiah 31 shows how the covenant with Israel is broken and that God will make a new covenant. What is this new covenant? Hebrews 8 tells us:

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- 9not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD. 10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, "Know the LORD,' for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more."[Jer. 31:31-34]
13In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

This analogy is being drawn off of a faulty, obsolete covenant that has vanished away. Israel never realized the promise of being a nation of priests because they could not keep the covenant. But God is merciful, and he sent someone who could perfectly keep the covenant, His Son, Jesus. Now, all who are in Christ have His righteousness and are priests in Him.

Romans 3
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Romans 5:17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

57 posted on 07/08/2002 11:56:48 AM PDT by Right_Wing_Mole_In_Seattle
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To: Polycarp
Nice and neat little lesson, but think about this. When the Hebrews, both in the Tabernacle in the Wilderness and in the Temple, from Solomon's time, put a curtain between the people and the Ark of the Covenant, it was to sheild them from the Glory of the Shechina. When Jesus died on the cross, God ripped the curtain from top to bottom, His deed. Now why put it back up? Seems disrespectful to me.
114 posted on 07/08/2002 6:41:09 PM PDT by JesseShurun
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To: Polycarp
Bump

For later reading.

141 posted on 07/08/2002 10:38:39 PM PDT by DreamWeaver
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To: Polycarp; crusadersoldier; Ellzeena; Anvilhead; stonehouse01; Goreknowshowtocheat; ...
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203 posted on 11/26/2011 10:49:10 AM PST by narses (what you bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and what you loose upon earth, shall be ..)
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204 posted on 01/16/2012 2:02:27 AM PST by narses
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