Navy Officer From Iowa Barred From Entering Mormon Temple

Des Moines Register ^ | 6/19/02 | Vess Mitev

[inkling]

I'm risking the sin of political incorrectness, but let's be honest: The LDS faith is wildly different from conventional Christianity. If it weren't, your local ward would have no problems with an evangelical Christian preaching whatever he wanted from your pulpit. But, thank God, we have freedom of religion in this country.

Best,
inkling

[Restorer]

Whether someone is or is not a Christian or not obviously defends on your definition of the term. By many definitions Mormons and JWs do not qualify, and by others Catholics do not.

Personally, I suspect the definition that counts is that of Jesus. Lacking direct revelation from him to me on the subject, I give all those who claim to be Christians the benefit of the doubt. If Jesus disagrees with their claim, we'll all find out in due course.

[Campion]

What fallen angel of light would want to push that idea? Hint: 2 Cor 11:14.

I'm told that the Catholic Cathedral in Salt Lake City, which fronts on Temple Square, has a stained glass window which prominently features that particular Scripture passage. :-)

[Mr. Bird]

Got this from some random site:

The distinction of "commissioned officer" is very old, and medieval in origin. In the feudal system, the royalty and nobility exercised all military command, their authority descending from the sovereign. The "King's Commission" was an instrument giving an officer command in the name of the sovereign, and as such it was restricted to the nobility and gentry. When captains went aboard vessels to take charge of them as men of war, they held their authority by virtue of their commission. The lieutenants were also commissioned officers, but none of the rest of the vessel's officers were deemed worthy of this distinction. As the master and others had to have some authority, they were given warrants. These warrant officers, though holding authority, were percieved as "second class" officers. Or, though they might be officers, they were not gentlemen.

[Restorer]

riding a burro with the Incas

Cool!

Everybody else thinks there weren't any burros in South America till the Spanish brought them.

[Dan(9698)]

"It never displays Jesus. "

That is false. -- I have been in temples that have a large (15ft) painting of Jesus inside the entrance.

[AppyPappy]

Is it a sin to wish the Mormons and JW's would arrive at the door at the same time?

[fogarty]

How's that again? Every mormon I've spoken with rejects the belief that salvation is received ONLY by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. The mormon church rejects the teaching of redemption through Christ alone, and instead focuses on the 'good works' you must do to inherit your salvation.

[HeadOn]

According to the material I've seen, the Mormons don't even realize the positions of their church fathers.

The official teaching of the church is that Jesus and Lucifer are/were spirit brothers, equal in stature, before Lucifer got ticked and left heaven. And, I do understand that they believe they will become gods when they die, with their very own planet, and a spirit-spouse to populate it with spirit-children. (Please - no flames. I'm just paraphrasing to make it quick...)

And YES - although I do not align with the Mormons, I DO think the Naval Officer was a jerk, if the story related is accurate.

[Campion]

Sorry, he's Polish, and he rides in a bullet-proof Mercedes. I don't think you could bullet-proof a Fiat

I believe the Pope uses a Mercedes, rather than a Fiat, because it is harder for a gunman to hit a moving target.

[Grig]

"I can assure you that that depends on your definition of Christian!"

from dictionary.com ( similar results from all other leading dictionaries)

Chris·tian Pronunciation Key (krschn)
adj.

1.Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of
Jesus.
2.Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus's teachings.
3.Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike.
4.Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents.
5.Showing a loving concern for others; humane.

From www.lds.org
The Living Christ
The Testimony of the Apostles
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

The Living Christ: The Testimony of the Apostles, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints,” Ensign, Apr. 2000, 2
As we commemorate the birth of Jesus Christ two millennia ago, we offer our testimony of the reality of His matchless life
and the infinite virtue of His great atoning sacrifice. None other has had so profound an influence upon all who have lived
and will yet live upon the earth.

He was the Great Jehovah of the Old Testament, the Messiah of the New. Under the direction of His Father, He was the
creator of the earth. “All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made” (John 1:3).
Though sinless, He was baptized to fulfill all righteousness. He “went about doing good” (Acts 10:38), yet was despised for
it. His gospel was a message of peace and goodwill. He entreated all to follow His example. He walked the roads of
Palestine, healing the sick, causing the blind to see, and raising the dead. He taught the truths of eternity, the reality of our
premortal existence, the purpose of our life on earth, and the potential for the sons and daughters of God in the life to come.

He instituted the sacrament as a reminder of His great atoning sacrifice. He was arrested and condemned on spurious
charges, convicted to satisfy a mob, and sentenced to die on Calvary’s cross. He gave His life to atone for the sins of all
mankind. His was a great vicarious gift in behalf of all who would ever live upon the earth.

We solemnly testify that His life, which is central to all human history, neither began in Bethlehem nor concluded on Calvary.
He was the Firstborn of the Father, the Only Begotten Son in the flesh, the Redeemer of the world.

He rose from the grave to “become the firstfruits of them that slept” (1 Cor. 15:20). As Risen Lord, He visited among those
He had loved in life. He also ministered among His “other sheep” (John 10:16) in ancient America. In the modern world, He
and His Father appeared to the boy Joseph Smith, ushering in the long-promised “dispensation of the fulness of times” (Eph.
1:10).

Of the Living Christ, the Prophet Joseph wrote: “His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure
snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters,
even the voice of Jehovah, saying:

“I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father” (D&C 110:3-4).

Of Him the Prophet also declared: “And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony,
last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!

“For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the
Father—

“That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons
and daughters unto God” (D&C 76:22-24).

We declare in words of solemnity that His priesthood and His Church have been restored upon the earth—“built upon the
foundation of … apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone” (Eph. 2:20).

We testify that He will someday return to earth. “And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it
together” (Isa. 40:5). He will rule as King of Kings and reign as Lord of Lords, and every knee shall bend and every tongue
shall speak in worship before Him. Each of us will stand to be judged of Him according to our works and the desires of our
hearts.

We bear testimony, as His duly ordained Apostles—that Jesus is the Living Christ, the immortal Son of God. He is the great
King Immanuel, who stands today on the right hand of His Father. He is the light, the life, and the hope of the world. His
way is the path that leads to happiness in this life and eternal life in the world to come. God be thanked for the matchless gift
of His divine Son.

So, what dictionary are YOU using?

[familyop]

I'm glad someone pointed this out. You too can become master of your own special universe - just keep nice and quiet until you make it into the inner layer of the Mormon Church. There, upon being completely compromised, you too will learn the amazing, death-defying secrets of Brother Joseph....

Ah, yes. ...paganism. There's more. Check out the Book of Covenants.

[AppyPappy]

That's OK. That wasn't really Jesus. It was some guy they got to pose for the image.

[RonF]

I can assure you that members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are most assuredly Christian!

I can find no example of any Christian denomination that has considered the question that accepts Mormons as Christians. Check the web sites for the RCC (the Vatican has it's own site, it's the best for this), the Lutherans, the Methodists, the Presbyterians, and the Southern Baptists. Go search on the terms "Mormon baptism". What you'll find is that these denominations have researched the issue and determined that there are some key LDS doctrines that are at variance with the canons passed by the early 3rd and 4th Century Christian councils and accepted as required elements of faith for anyone calling themselves Christian.

These include accepting the Trinity as one being, not three, and accepting Jesus as the only Son of God.

The LDS also holds the belief that there is another deity, God the Mother, and that God the Father and God the Mother procreate, producing spiritual children that are incarnated as humans on earth. Thus, Jesus is not the only Son of God, he's just the first born. And, finally for the purposes of this message, although there are certainly many other LDS doctrines at variance with Christianity, it is held that through faith and good works and obedience to LDS doctrines, humans can achieve divinity and, as married couples, graduate to become the gods of other planets, which they will then populate with their children as God the Father and God the Mother have populated Earth.

As I say, check the above web sites. Understand that this is not something I'm picking up as anti-Mormon rumor. I got this all from the above sources, which one would think would be reputable.

The whole thing came up as the question began to be considered, "Do Mormons need to be baptized upon conversion to < a_Christian_church >?" The RCCs decided "Yes", and then other denominations took up the matter and agreed. This is as opposed to the practice where, for example, a baptized Lutheran wouldn't need to be baptized again to become Catholic (although some other confirmation rite might be required). Once baptized as a Christian, always baptized as a Christian, regardless of the denomination you were baptized in. But if you're not baptized as a Christian, then you need to be to join a Christian sect.

So, while the word "Christian" is not copyrighted, and anyone can use it, I can't find any non-Mormons who consider Mormons Christian, while Christian denominations accord other Christian denominations that basic consideration, even though they may think that the other denomination is in grevious error and is in danger of damnation because of their practices.

[ArrogantBustard]

I don't agree with their American pre-history any more than with their theology, but there it is. I've seen the painting.

[TC Rider]

The Mormon Temples are not for everyday or even Sabbath worship. They are 'high' Temples used for administering the sacrements only.

There are only a few handfuls of Temples in the entire United States. One was built recently in my hometown of Apex, NC, to serve the entire Eastern NC region.

They too had a open house period before the Temple was consecrated.

This joker was way out of line and an embarassment to the Armed Forces.

[AnAmericanMother]

Got no problems with the LDS believing whatever they want to believe. It's (mostly) still a free country.

But their doctrine on the Trinity and the Incarnation is . . . fairly unique. Which is fine. But I think it's fair to say that it's not mainstream Christian, anyhow.

My cousin converted to the LDS church, and he's had the old college try at converting this Nosebleed-High-Anglican, so I've hammered out doctrinal questions with him pretty thoroughly. (It was a no go on the conversion, which is o.k. too. We have had very friendly and informative discussions, and I mean that in the literal sense, not the diplomatic one.) :D

[Campion]

Christians worship Jesus Christ as Incarnate God, consubstantial with the Father and the Holy Spirit, Grig.

You do not. Am I correct?

Incidentally, if you search your online BoM, you'll discover that it depicts ancient Indians worshipping Jesus. Did the rules change?

"Lord Jesus, receive my spirit" -- St. Stephen the Proto-martyr.

[crystalk]

I think if someone entered our church, and started giving his own lecture about how silly our doctrines were, and how pagan and un-Christian the symbols were, and how we failed to include some symbol he DID want, and DID have some he did NOT want, would be shown the door much more quickly than even this man was.

Temples are, of course, for a few major life events, such as marriages, and other solemn ceremonies, and it is very seldom that any large number of persons is present at any one time.

For those who do not know, this temple in the story, the one at Nauvoo, Ill.--which is on the Mississippi River halfway between, but across the river from, Burlington and Keokuk, Iowa-- is in a sense a historical monument, for Mormons were once headquartered there and lived mostly there (c1837-47).

It was from there that the prophet Joseph Smith (1805-44) was grabbed in June of 1844 and taken to nearby Carthage, IL, where an anti-Mormon mob attacked and shot him and his brother Hyrum to death.

Other Temples exist in places centrally located, to serve Mormons in that general and extended area (including a lovely one overlooking Las Vegas (!)...but this one is put there mostly (I dare say) to commemorate Joseph's last home and his death, though perhaps the rest of the Midwest has few enough Temples that it will also see actual use...

PS To posters above, I would say that the very same people who deny that Mormons are Christians, also deny that Roman Catholics are Christians. What sillies, the Bible says that any church that says Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, and will affirm that, is of God ...and therefore IMO Christian!!!