Posted on 05/05/2002 11:30:36 PM PDT by nickcarraway
by Mark Shea
How I Changed My Mind About Mary
5/6/02
It once seemed perfectly obvious to me that Catholics honored Mary too much. All those feasts, rosaries, icons, statues and whatnot were ridiculously excessive. Yes, the gospel of Luke said something about her being "blessed" and yes I thought her a good person. But that was that.
No Mary, No Salvation
People who celebrated her or called her "Mother" or did all the million things which Catholic piety encourages bordered on idolatry. It was all too much. Jesus, after all, is our Savior, not Mary.
However, after looking at the gospel of Luke afresh and thinking more and more about the humanity of Jesus Christ, some things dawned on me. For it turns out that Luke said more than "something" about Mary. He reports that God was conceived in her womb and thereby made a son of Adam! This means more than merely saying that Mary was an incubator unit for the Incarnation. It means that the Logos, the Second Person of the Trinity derives his humanity--all of it--from her! Why does this matter? Because the entire reason we are able to call Jesus "savior" at all is because the God who cannot die became a man who could die. And he chose to do it through Mary's free "yes" to him. No Mary, no human nature for Christ. No human nature for Christ, no death on the cross. No death, no resurrection. No resurrection, no salvation. Without Mary, we are still in our sins.
Too Much vs. Just Enough
This made me see Mary very differently. The Incarnation is vastly more than God zipping on a disposable man-suit. He remains man eternally. Therefore, his joining with the human race through the womb of Mary means (since he is the savior of us all), that she is the mother of us all (John 19:27). Moreover, it means that her remarkable choice to say "Yes" to the Incarnation was not merely a one-time incident, it was an offering of her own heart to God and us. Her heart was pierced by the sword that opened the fountain of blood and water in Christ's human heart, for it was she who, by the grace of God, gave him that heart (Luke 2:35; John 19:34).
Seeing this, I began to wonder again: If Catholics honor Mary "too much", where did we Evangelicals honor her "just enough." Mary herself said "henceforth, all generations will call me blessed." When was the last time I had heard a contemporary Christian tune on the radio sung in honor of Mary? Or a prayer in church to extol her? How about a teensy weensy bit of verse or a little article in some magazine singling out Mary as blessed among women? Aside from "Silent Night" was there anything in Evangelical piety which dared to praise her for even a moment? I was an Evangelical for seven years and I never saw so much as a dram of it.
St. Luke? Is That You?</>
So the question became for me, "How could we talk about something being 'excessive' when we had virtually no experience of it ourselves?" What if it was we Evangelicals who were excessive in our horror of Marian piety and Catholics who are normal? Judging from the witness of the early Fathers and even of Martin Luther (who had a very robust Marian devotion and whose tomb is decorated with an illustration of the Assumption of the Virgin into Heaven) it seemed to me that it was we Evangelicals who were excessive in our fear of her rather than Catholics who were excessive in their devotion.
"Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen."
There. That didn't hurt a bit. In fact, I think I heard St. Luke pray it too!
Of course it is about the judgement! Christ is talking about our actions towards others during our earthly lifetime. If everything we do is "filthy rags" then why is verbally preaching to others any different than tending, in the name of Christ, to those less fortunate than we are? According to you, both are "filthy rags" and both are beyond the "Faith alone" argument that you embrace. The audience Christ is speaking to is an audience of believers -they already have faith in Him - they are calling him "Lord" - and notice he is not calling them cursed for not believing in Him, but he is condemning them for their inaction in the face of the needy.
"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not." Then shall they also answer him, saying, "Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?" Then shall he answer them, saying, "Verily I say unto you, inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me." And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.It seems to me that the "righteous", using Christ's own words, were believers who also "did it to one of the least of these, did it to Him."
You throw around "good works" regarding Mother Teresa, but she herself did not see what she did as "good works" - she saw each and every soul that she ministered to, as Christ Himself. That is all. She did not do what she did to perform "good works" - she did it out of love of Christ.
Who said she did not tell them about Christ? She was one of his shining lights - a living testament of His love and how it will transform us if we listen to Him. She was an example to those dying lepers and to us. As for conversions... she did convert Malcolm Muggeridge - and not by her words, either.
Colleen if you could work your way to heaven there would have been no need for the cross..
No kidding.
I worry about our Christian culture that we no longer think it is OK or necessary to speak of Christ and to teach the gospel
Some really bad folks do nice things.
Mother T did good work..but if she did not tell them about Christ as she did it, that had no clue WHY she was doing it.
Lets say that your reading is right and one way one can go to heaven by feeding the hungry and clothing the naked . How does MT doing it save the lost . They are too ill to do good works and her good works can not be credited to them. So how does her meeting their physical needs save them?
Collen Christ is our righteousaness. What we do in obedience to Him is holy..what we do to earn His approval or the approval of man ,out of our own ego is filthy rags..(remember those are Gods words..the Hebrew translates to a menstral rag or the rag used to collect pus from the lepers wound) imagine the scent of that pus..that is what our human effort smells like to God. Do you think God will reward Alec Baldwins charity efforts (that benefited him by the publicity) the same as the widows mite?
Are they equal?
One work out of the flesh and one out of the love of God..
The sheep are His Colleen ..(He is the Good shepherd) The goats may have done things we would call "good" But he hates them ..they were not done in His name.
The audience Christ is speaking to is an audience of believers -they already have faith in Him - they are calling him "Lord" - and notice he is not calling them cursed for not believing in Him, but he is condemning them for their inaction in the face of the needy.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
We can agree this is a call to those that are His (sheep:>) the goats ..no matter how many good works they do will never please God. He will see the works of their flesh as filthy rags. This is my Blessing for all of us regarding good works
Hbr 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
Hbr 13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Collen preach the gospel in season and out..do not stop..do it when you are doing good works..whay good to feed a man a meal. He will be hungry tomorrow..but if you show him the bread of life..the living water he will never hunger or thirst again clothe him in the gospel and he will not stand naked on that day!
THAT IMHO is what Jesus was talking about
I think that the passage about "filthy rags" pertains to the time of Isaiah when the people had turned from God and were being chastized. They did not call upon the name of the Lord. But when you do call on his name and turn to him in love your works are righteous in Him. Check out the link. "What is Meant by "Filthy Rags"?
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/1226/rags.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Of course it is about the judgement! Christ is talking about our actions towards others during our earthly lifetime. If everything we do is "filthy rags" then why is verbally preaching to others any different than tending, in the name of Christ, to those less fortunate than we are? According to you, both are "filthy rags" and both are beyond the "Faith alone" argument that you embrace. The audience Christ is speaking to is an audience of believers -they already have faith in Him - they are calling him "Lord" - and notice he is not calling them cursed for not believing in Him, but he is condemning them for their inaction in the face of the needy.
"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not." Then shall they also answer him, saying, "Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?" Then shall he answer them, saying, "Verily I say unto you, inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me." And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
It seems to me that the "righteous", using Christ's own words, were believers who also "did it to one of the least of these, did it to Him." You throw around "good works" regarding Mother Teresa, but she herself did not see what she did as "good works" - she saw each and every soul that she ministered to, as Christ Himself. That is all. She did not do what she did to perform "good works" - she did it out of love of Christ.
Who said she did not tell them about Christ? She was one of his shining lights - a living testament of His love and how it will transform us if we listen to Him. She was an example to those dying lepers and to us. As for conversions... she did convert Malcolm Muggeridge - and not by her words, either. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On to your new post. No one, no one at all, suggested that anyone thinks it is OK or not necessary to speak of Christ or teach the Gospel. Mother Teresa did both - and, she lived it! That is much more than you or I can claim, is it not?
You are trying to put words and thoughts into my post that are not there. I never, ever said that one can go to Heaven by feeding the hungry and clothing the naked. What I said is that Christ condemned believers for not doing just that. So, you can't get to Heaven by doing it, but you can go to Hell for not doing it - and that is His own words, not mine.
I believe those poor suffering souls will have an easier time seeing Jesus than you or I will. Their suffering, an entire lifes worth of suffering is more than I've had to bear. I've been given much, and much is expected of me. They've been given little...
Mother Teresa gave them dignity and worth in a world which ignores them and leaves them to die in the gutter. She did it because she felt a calling to them. She saw Christ in them, and she did what she did for the love she had for Him. I wonder what He himself would have done when he saw diseased, dying, naked, hungry, thirsty and unwanted babies, men, women and children lying in the gutter.
What we do in obedience to Him is holy..what we do to earn His approval or the approval of man ,out of our own ego is filthy rags..(remember those are Gods words..the Hebrew translates to a menstral rag or the rag used to collect pus from the lepers wound) imagine the scent of that pus..that is what our human effort smells like to God. Do you think God will reward Alec Baldwins charity efforts (that benefited him by the publicity) the same as the widows mite?
And what did God command us to do? In your world, it doesn't matter what he asked of us, because it is all worthless anyway. So why bother doing anything at all except believe in Him. You are either saved, or not saved. Period. Unless of course, you are not one of the "elect" - then, forget it, Jesus isn't for you even if you believe in Him! But I believe Faith is Action, not just talk. I cannot speak for Alec Balwin or anyone else. Only for myself. I don't even know if Alec Balwin believes in God. I don't care. I hope he does. Maybe you should call him up and preach to him. Oh, don't bother, because it is all "filthy rags" in God's eyes anyway, right?
Collen preach the gospel in season and out..do not stop..do it when you are doing good works..whay good to feed a man a meal. He will be hungry tomorrow..but if you show him the bread of life..the living water he will never hunger or thirst again clothe him in the gospel and he will not stand naked on that day!
Nice words. I guess you'd read him Scripture out of context while he is dying in the gutter. Now that's love!
Here is the link you posted just now: "What is Meant by "Filthy Rags"?
This is all true. But when people have been thrown out into the streets to die like dogs in their own excrement and they are ignorant and unconscious, the odds are they won't know what you are talking about. I can hear their dying words, "Jesus WHO?"
Of course this was not always the case with each person Mother came across. But her mission was to the dying and destitute. And I still have a theory though I can't find proof, that out and out evangilization in India is going to result in a very short mission because you will be killed. Correct me if I am wrong, I could be wrong.
Does anyone know if the above is correct? I would really like to know.
If I am right about all this, then it seems to me that it is a good thing to help the misery of the body though you may not be able to reach the soul. I know you don't think that pagans should be left to rot in the streets unless you can convert them. Pagans are loved by God as dearly as we are.
I can't find the first one. It was by a Protestant like the one I gave you. I will look some more.
Catholic World News — News Brief — 08/05/1999
India Hindus Object To Quick Canonization For Mother Teresa NEW DELHI (CWNews.com) - A leader of an extremist Hindu group said on Thursday that the Catholic Church's accelerated process for the canonization of Mother Teresa is an attempt to prompt increased Christian evangelization in India.Giriraj Kishore, of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (World Hindu Council), said the Vatican's only intention in waiving the customary five-year waiting period was the encourage missionary activity in the nun's adopted country, according to a report by the Press Trust of India. The VHP has led a campaign against Christians and Muslims in the mainly Hindu country, where outbursts of violence have claimed a number of Christian lives in recent years.
The official inquiry into the life of Mother Teresa, who died two years ago at age 87, began last week in Calcutta with the gathering of testimony on her life of heroic virtue.
Yeah these dudes are bad news. They want thier country to be Hindu and not Christian or Muslim. Well thanks! So far it looks like I am close to right.
I agree with all of your post, I take it you are Orthodox too ?
You can form an opinion if you like and you can set a standard if you like. It is a free country. But since you are not God, you can't know if your opinion is as right a God's is and that pertains to their eternity as well as their ministery.
"I asked what fruit was born from her ministry? How many souls were saved? Was it truly a spiritual ministry or was it a temporal one? "
It's a matter of opinion because every thing is not black and white. But your opinion and mine are still up for grabs at the throne of God. I think it is better to just leave it alone and not risk angering God, just in case your "opinion" might be too harsh. What's done is done. She is a Catholic, and you don't have a dog in this fight so to speak. Go over to India and preach the gospel yourself if you think she did not do it right.
Wrong again Terry, as usual. You are so vested in rationalizing leaving the True Church that you are willing to insult fellow Christian friends who point out your errors.
You are so vested in the theology of Calvin, not the word of God, that you have the temerity to suggest one of Christ's greatest saints of the last century was damned for not preaching the gospel in the fashion you and your infallible Calvinist comrades deem best. Pathetic.
Welcome to Free Republic Catholic Apologetics 101.
You just learned the first most valuable lesson. The anti-Catholics here reject all scriptutral, historical, or rational proofs that do not correspond to their 500 year old heretical version of Christianity.
However, there are others that do not post to these threads that are indeed listening closely.
They are often convinced of the Truth of Catholicism not by our patient apologetics but indeed by the demonic vindictive hateful posts of the anti-Catholic bigots.
Hand the bigots enough rope, and they will hang themselves with it.
Don't get frustrated. We have had dozens of Catholic reverts and converts here on Free Republic because of the patient apologetics of the Catholic Caucus here.
When the bigots get you down, just log off and pray for them, take a break from the forum if necessary, then come back swinging.
This is spiritual warfare. Don't forget that reality.
Are you blind?
How many souls were saved?
God alone knows that. And your definition of "saved" itself is open for debate.
Was it truly a spiritual ministry or was it a temporal one?
Jesus says there's no difference:
31 And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty.
32 And all nations shall be gathered together before him: and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.
34 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink: I was a stranger, and you took me in:
36 Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me.
37 Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry and fed thee: thirsty and gave thee drink?
38 Or when did we see thee a stranger and took thee in? Or naked and covered thee?
39 Or when did we see thee sick or in prison and came to thee?
40 And the king answering shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.
41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, which was prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 For I was hungry and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty and you gave me not to drink.
43 I was a stranger and you took me not in: naked and you covered me not: sick and in prison and you did not visit me.
44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and did not minister to thee?
45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen: I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.
46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.
*****
Judging by the criteria Jesus Christ Himself lays out here for salvation, I think Mother Teresa measures up quite well against Billy Graham, or any other protestant preacher you care to offer.
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