How I Changed My Mind About Mary

e3mil.com ^ | 5/6/02 | Mark Shea

[nickcarraway]

by Mark Shea

How I Changed My Mind About Mary

5/6/02

It once seemed perfectly obvious to me that Catholics honored Mary too much. All those feasts, rosaries, icons, statues and whatnot were ridiculously excessive. Yes, the gospel of Luke said something about her being "blessed" and yes I thought her a good person. But that was that.

No Mary, No Salvation

People who celebrated her or called her "Mother" or did all the million things which Catholic piety encourages bordered on idolatry. It was all too much. Jesus, after all, is our Savior, not Mary.

However, after looking at the gospel of Luke afresh and thinking more and more about the humanity of Jesus Christ, some things dawned on me. For it turns out that Luke said more than "something" about Mary. He reports that God was conceived in her womb and thereby made a son of Adam! This means more than merely saying that Mary was an incubator unit for the Incarnation. It means that the Logos, the Second Person of the Trinity derives his humanity--all of it--from her! Why does this matter? Because the entire reason we are able to call Jesus "savior" at all is because the God who cannot die became a man who could die. And he chose to do it through Mary's free "yes" to him. No Mary, no human nature for Christ. No human nature for Christ, no death on the cross. No death, no resurrection. No resurrection, no salvation. Without Mary, we are still in our sins.

Too Much vs. Just Enough

This made me see Mary very differently. The Incarnation is vastly more than God zipping on a disposable man-suit. He remains man eternally. Therefore, his joining with the human race through the womb of Mary means (since he is the savior of us all), that she is the mother of us all (John 19:27). Moreover, it means that her remarkable choice to say "Yes" to the Incarnation was not merely a one-time incident, it was an offering of her own heart to God and us. Her heart was pierced by the sword that opened the fountain of blood and water in Christ's human heart, for it was she who, by the grace of God, gave him that heart (Luke 2:35; John 19:34).

Seeing this, I began to wonder again: If Catholics honor Mary "too much", where did we Evangelicals honor her "just enough." Mary herself said "henceforth, all generations will call me blessed." When was the last time I had heard a contemporary Christian tune on the radio sung in honor of Mary? Or a prayer in church to extol her? How about a teensy weensy bit of verse or a little article in some magazine singling out Mary as blessed among women? Aside from "Silent Night" was there anything in Evangelical piety which dared to praise her for even a moment? I was an Evangelical for seven years and I never saw so much as a dram of it.

St. Luke? Is That You?</>

So the question became for me, "How could we talk about something being 'excessive' when we had virtually no experience of it ourselves?" What if it was we Evangelicals who were excessive in our horror of Marian piety and Catholics who are normal? Judging from the witness of the early Fathers and even of Martin Luther (who had a very robust Marian devotion and whose tomb is decorated with an illustration of the Assumption of the Virgin into Heaven) it seemed to me that it was we Evangelicals who were excessive in our fear of her rather than Catholics who were excessive in their devotion.

"Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen."

There. That didn't hurt a bit. In fact, I think I heard St. Luke pray it too!

[Sock]

I'd say she understood her roll rather well.

Are you sure? ;-)

Interesting (but not surprising) isn't it. That a gainsaying unintelligent woman, whose appreciation and understanding of Scripture leads her to squander hours upon hours at an internet website, should find fault with the way a Catholic woman sacrificed her entire life to serve Christ in the poorest of the poor. You see, Mother Teresa wasn't up to the gainsayer's standards.

Mother Teresa should have been thumping her King James at those dying Hindu heathens. And because she didn't, you see, means they're all going to HELL.

And Mother's in deep trouble herself for not thumping. Forget about the thousands of vocations within her order that have occurred directly because of her living testimony. Forget about the millions of Catholics, other Christians and non Christians who have been inspired to lead lives dedicated to helping the poor and actually LIVING the gospel message because of her life. All irrelevant to a gainsayer, you see.

From No Greater Love:

Q. Do you attempt to present any special religious message through your work?

Mother Teresa responds: Love has no other message but its own. Every day we try to live out Christ's love in a very tangible way, in every one of our deeds. If we do any preaching, it is done with deeds, not with words. That is our witness to the gospel.

[american colleen]

"On the last day, Jesus will say to those on His right hand, 'Come enter the Kingdom. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was sick and you visited me.' Then Jesus will turn to those on His left hand and say, 'Depart from me because I was hungry and you did not feed me, I was thirsty and you did not give me to drink, I was sick and you did not visit me.' These will ask Him, 'When did we see You hungry, or thirsty or sick and did not come to Your help?'. And Jesus will answer then, 'Whatever you neglected to do unto one of the least of these, you neglected to do unto Me!"

Oh no! Filthy rags! ;-)

[RnMomof7]

That is not the gospel message codie...that is salvation by works..Repent and Believe is the gospel. How will they know unless you tell them..

Remember codie all of our righteousness is as filthy rags......Blessed are the feet of them that bring the Good news..(and that is not 'dinner is ready')

[Claudette]

If you judge people, you have no time to love them- Mother Theresa

I love how Mother Theresa saw Christ in every human on earth.
I'm pretty sure he loves her right back.

[drstevej]

Hey BC, has this Protestant done any of those things you cite?
drstevej

[american colleen]

That is not the gospel message codie...that is salvation by works..Repent and Believe is the gospel. How will they know unless you tell them..

Remember codie all of our righteousness is as filthy rags......Blessed are the feet of them that bring the Good news..(and that is not 'dinner is ready')

OK, I guess then the following must be "filthy rags?"

Matthew 25:32-46
And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, "Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me." Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, "Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?" And the King shall answer and say unto them, "Verily I say unto you, inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not." Then shall they also answer him, saying, "Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?" Then shall he answer them, saying, "Verily I say unto you, inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me." And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

So... this is not the gospel message Terri?

[Codie]

From the National Prayer Breakfast, Washington, D.C., February, 1994

The rest of Mother's speech:

"As we have gathered here to pray together, I think it will be beautiful if we begin with a prayer that expresses very well what Jesus wants us to do for the least. St. Francis of Assisi understood very well these words of Jesus and His life is very well expressed by a prayer. And this prayer, which we say every day after Holy Communion, always surprises me very much, because it is very fitting for each one of us. And I always wonder whether 800 years ago when St. Francis lived, they had the same difficulties that we have today. I think that some of you already have this prayer of peace - so we will pray it together.

"Let us thank God for the Opportunity He has given us today to have come here to pray together. We have come here especially to pray for Peace, Joy, and Love. We are reminded that Jesus came to bring the good news to the poor. He had told us what is that good news when He said: 'My Peace I leave with you, My Peace I give unto you.' He came not to give the peace of the world which is only that we don't bother each other. He came to give the Peace of heart which comes from loving - from doing good to others.

"And God loved the world so much that He gave His Son - it was a giving. God gave His Son to the Virgin Mary, and what did she do with Him? As soon as Jesus came into Mary's life, immediately she went in haste to give that good news. And as she came into the house of her cousin, Elizabeth, Scripture tells us that the unborn child - the child in the womb of Elizabeth - leapt with joy. While still in the womb of Mary - Jesus brought Peace to John the Baptist who leapt for joy in the womb of Elizabeth.

"And as if that were not enough, as if it were not enough that God the Son should become one of us and bring Peace and Joy while still in the womb of Mary, Jesus also died on the Cross to show that greater Love. He died for you and for me, and for that leper and for that man dying of hunger and that naked person lying in the street, not only of Calcutta, but of Africa, and everywhere. Our Sisters serve these poor people in 105 countries throughout the world. Jesus insisted that we love one another as He loves each one of us. Jesus gave His Life to love us and He tells us that we also have to give whatever it takes to do good to one another. And in the Gospel Jesus says very clearly: 'Love as I have loved you.

"Jesus died on the Cross because that is what it took for Him to do good to us - to save us from our selfishness in sin. He gave up everything to do the Father's Will - to show us that we too must be willing to give up everything to do God's Will - to love one another as He loves each of us. That is why we too must give to each other until it hurts.

"It is not enough for us to say: 'I love God', but I also have to love my neighbor. St. John says that you are a liar if you say you love God and you don't love your neighbor. How can you love God whom you do not see, if you do not love your neighbor whom you see, whom you touch, with whom you live? And so it is very important for us to realize that love, to be true, has to hurt. I must be willing to give whatever it takes not to harm other people and, in fact, to do good to them. This requires that I be willing to give until it hurts. Otherwise, there is no true love in me and I bring injustice, not peace, to those around me.

"It hurt Jesus to love us. We have been created in His Image for greater things, to love and to be loved. We just 'put on Christ' as Scripture tells us. And so, we have been created to love as He loves us. Jesus makes Himself the hungry one, the naked one, the homeless one, the unwanted one, and He says, "You did it unto Me." On the last day He will say to those on His right, 'Whatever you did to the least of these, you did to Me', and He will also say to those on His left, 'Whatever you neglected to do for the least of these, you neglected to do it for Me'.

"When He was dying on the Cross, Jesus said, 'I thirst'. Jesus is thirsting for our love, and this is the thirst of everyone, poor or rich alike. We all thirst for the love of others, that they will go out of their way to avoid harming us and to do good to us. This is the meaning of truest love, to give until it hurts.

"I can never forget the experience I had in visiting a home where they kept all these old parents of sons and daughters who had just put them into an institution and forgotten them - maybe. I saw that in that home these old people had everything - good food, comfortable place, television, everything, but everyone was looking toward the door. And I did not see a single one with a smile on the face. I turned to Sister and I asked: 'Why do these people, who have every comfort here, why are they all looking toward the door? Why are they not smiling?

"I am so used to seeing the smiles on our people, even the dying ones smile. And Sister said: 'This is the way it is nearly every day. They are expecting, they are hoping that a son or daughter will come to visit them. They are hurt because they are forgotten.' And see, this neglect to love brings spiritual poverty. Maybe in our own family we have somebody who is feeling lonely, who is feeling sick, who is feeling worried. Are we there? Are we willing to give until it hurts in order to be with our families, or do we put our own interests first? These are the questions we must ask ourselves, especially as we begin this year of the family. We must remember that love begins at home and we must also remember that the future of humanity passes through the family."

How will they know unless you tell them.

If we "all" followed Mother's lead how would they "not" know?

[NYer]

I'd say she understood her roll rather well.

I would like to publicly thank RnMomof7 for her relentless attack on Mother Teresa! Yes, RnMomof7, Thank You, from the bottom of my heart. Because it is through your tireless efforts to dismantle a woman who gave her all that I have now come to know, understand and appreciate just what it takes to be a saint. A witness to Mother Teresa's work in London, England described his experience as follows:

So first I started going out at night into the streets with the Sisters to feed and clothe the homeless. The first night was scary. As a businessman, I had seen people and given money to beggars, but had never actually talked to or touched these people, so I was fearful. Like Malcolm Muggeridge said when Mother took him to these places, I went through 3 phases: First, horror mixed with pity; the second, compassion pure and simple; and the third, reaching beyond compassion, something I had never experienced before, the awareness that these people, including the ones I met at Mother's houses in India, dying and derelict men and women, lepers with stumps instead of hands, the unwanted children, were somehow not repulsive but rather dear as friends, brothers and sisters. Finally one day with Sr. Shoba I picked up a disoriented man who almost got run down by a bus in front of Victoria Station. As I took him to safety and put him down, I saw the face of Christ in his face. I will never forget that day - Mother was right.

I am confidant that RnMomof7, a professional nurse of great faith, would be willing to do the same for her church in her community, if she has not already done so.

When Mother Teresa died, the world sat up and responded.

• At the funeral in Calcutta the Government of India, Hindu nation, gave a government funeral as they had done for Mahatma Ghandi in 1948 and carried Mother's casket on the same gun carriage. In Ghandi's biography he told a story how he cleaned out a Kali temple in Kaligat - a section of Calcutta; and how he prayed some day some holy person would take over the building and use it for the good of God's people. In the spring of 1948 Ghandi was shot. August 8, 1948 Mother went into the streets and the first building she opened for the Home for the dying was that Kaligat temple - fulfilling Ghandi's call. They are saying in India Ghandi was the father of India in the first half of the century - Mother Teresa was the mother of India in the second half.
• At Mother's funeral, for the first time in the history of civilization, all faiths from all cultures and nations paid tribute publicly to this Roman Catholic nun who carried God's message of love to the world, acknowledgment of the Protestant churches, the Buddhists, Sikhs, Islam, Hindu to name a few.
  Mother said - she loved all religions but she loved hers the most.
• The funeral represented some beautiful symbolism of the various aspects of Mother's work, for example, the presentation of the gifts were made by a handicapped orphan, a leper, a woman released from prison, a retarded boy and a Missionaries of Charity Sister. These were some of the constituencies that Mother touched in a major way.
• Will the Missionaries of Charity last after Mother? There is a story in the Bible: after Christ died they arrested Peter and another disciple - one of the Pharisees said "these things come and go, if it is not of God it will die out, if it is of God it will last." 2000 years ago. Mother Teresa's order Missionaries of Charity was inspired by God September 10, 1946. It has grown with God's grace and will go on as the other great orders of the Benedictines over 1000 years St Benedict; Franciscans 1230 A.D. 800 years St Francis; Jesuits 1530 A.D. 400 years St Ignatius; to name but a few.

[RnMomof7]

Love has no other message but its own. Every day we try to live out Christ's love in a very tangible way, in every one of our deeds. If we do any preaching, it is done with deeds, not with words. That is our witness to the gospel.

That is not true........you may say that those that sell drugs or abort their children are doing it out of love if their circumstances are not perfect

Jhn 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

[Sock]

I am confidant that RnMomof7, a professional nurse of great faith, would be willing to do the same for her church in her community, if she has not already done so.

Of course, provided it didn't interfere with posting on the Internet every morning, noon, and night.

[RnMomof7]

No Colleen it is not the gospel and if you believe it is I beg you to take some time alone with your bible and Jesus and ask Him to tell you what you must do to be saved!

The Gospel is clear Jesus Christ died for your sins..he paid the total price..you are justified and santified by His Blood. It is by faith in him that you are saved..not by works of righteousness.The gospel preached by the Apostles of the early church Repent and believe ..

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

The works of man are still unclean to a Holy God

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Even the heathan does corporal works of mercy Colleen. Works not done by the spirit of God are filthy to Him..

..Salvation is under no other name but the name of Jesus Christ

In Peace and in His name

[RnMomof7]

Salvation Scripture

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Ro 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Re 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Ro 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

[RnMomof7]

You too will be retired some day...

[american colleen]

The Gospel is clear Jesus Christ died for your sins..he paid the total price..you are justified and santified by His Blood. It is by faith in him that you are saved..not by works of righteousness.The gospel preached by the Apostles of the early church Repent and believe ..

If I have faith in Him, then of course I have faith in His words.

Matthew 25:32-46 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, "Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me." Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, "Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?" And the King shall answer and say unto them, "Verily I say unto you, inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not." Then shall they also answer him, saying, "Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?" Then shall he answer them, saying, "Verily I say unto you, inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me." And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

So let's see, do I discount Jesus' words? Were they just "filthy rags?" Was he just making small talk? Could you please tell me what and why Jesus made this speech?

[RnMomof7]

At Mother's funeral, for the first time in the history of civilization, all faiths from all cultures and nations paid tribute publicly to this Roman Catholic nun who carried God's message of love to the world, acknowledgment of the Protestant churches, the Buddhists, Sikhs, Islam, Hindu to name a few. Mother said - she loved all religions but she loved hers the most.

I am sorry that you do not understand this is the problem. There is nothing to love in false religions. There is salvation under no other name but the name of Jesus Christ. I do not love false religions..do you? Will you too assist others into hell by ignoring their error and refusing to tell them about Jesus Christ?

Mother Teresa did good work with a needy population..the questiion is where are their souls today?

[american colleen]

Thanks for all the quotes taken out of context to support your interpretation of the Bible.

[RnMomof7]

You beg the question here Colleeen . I have not questioned Mother Teresa's salvation...

I just want you to explain to me how her good works kept the dying lepers out of hell.. that was the original point .....

How did her good work save souls if she never told them about Christ?

Colleen the bible said our works are as filthy rags. I did not say it..God said it. You can take if up with Him:>)

This was not a "speech" It is the last of a series of parables. And yes there is a ponit to be made..but I do not think it is the one you want made.This is about the end time judgement. One hint is 25:37  Then shall the righteous answer him1, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, and fed thee? or athirst, and gave thee drink? Matthew 25:37-40

The righteous are the saved..our only righteousness is IN Christ. So those that are IN him are being addressed.

No work outside of Christ is seen as righteous..

Colleen if you could work your way to heaven there would have been no need for the cross..

I now return to my original question..How did Mother Teresas good works win salvation for the poor dying leper?

[NYer]

You have neglected to answer both of my questions. I suppose that is because you do not have the answers.

Mother Teresa did good work with a needy population..the questiion is where are their souls today? The answer, according to scripture, would be ... in the same place as yours. You are no longer a practicing catholic. Christ said:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him" (John 6:53–56).

[Brices Crossroads]

No. Steve. If I didn't make that clear enough, it should have been. I cited only the invective from other sources. Although we disagree on some fundamental issues, you are a gentleman and a scholar.

[drstevej]

Thanks, you have been fair with me as well. Till we joust again.... drj