Posted on 04/19/2002 6:00:46 AM PDT by DouglasKC
Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard. For we who have believed do enter into that rest; even as he hath said, As I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he hath said somewhere of the seventh day on this wise, And God rested on the seventh day from all his works; and in this place again, They shall not enter into my rest. Seeing therefore it remaineth that some should enter thereinto, and they to whom the good tidings were before preached failed to enter in because of disobedience, he again defineth a certain day, To-day, saying in David so long a time afterward (even as hath been said before), To-day if ye shall hear his voice, Harden not your hearts. For if Joshua had given them rest, he would not have spoken afterward of another day. There remaineth therefore a sabbath rest for the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest hath himself also rested from his works, as God did from his. Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that rest, that no man fall after the same example of disobedience. (Hebrews 4:1-11 ASV)Enter into the true Sabbath rest. It is not only for the "seventh day," it is for every day. It is not merely a rest from physical labor and financial gain, it is a "rest for your souls," a rest from dead works. It changes your heart, in a way that strict observance of the Sabbath day in Israel never did. And finally, it is an issue of faith, not of a manner of observance, as he says: "For we who have believed do enter into that rest."
And this is worth notice:
Seeing therefore it remaineth that some should enter thereinto, and they to whom the good tidings were before preached failed to enter in because of disobedience, he again defineth a certain day, To-day, saying in David so long a time afterward (even as hath been said before), To-day if ye shall hear his voice, Harden not your hearts.A "certain day" has been defined. Is it the "seventh day?" No: it is today, for as long as it is called, "today."
I'm a proud member of the United Church of God. Here is a link to the statement of beliefs that I share with other church members.
The church main website is www.ucg.org
It's literature outreach website is: www.gnmagazine.org
United holds much of the same doctrine, but not all, as what was taught in Armstrongs WorldWide Church of God. United and Worldwide are not the same organization. United remsembles Worldwide very little except in some doctrinal beliefs.
If you have any problem with doctrine and want to discuss it, be prepared to back up your belief with the bible. I won't debate your tradition with you.
I'll also be charitible to you and chalk up your rude and obnoxious attitude about my faith in God and Christ to your own ignorance in the matter.
I'm looking forward to a vigorous, bible based debate!
This sir is absolutely false. I believe totally in the scriptural Christ. Christ is the second person in the Godhead, that is completely scriptural. Christ if fully God. I believe that the Holy Spirit IS God working on earth in believers.
Those are heretical teachings. A false God and a false gospel. It's immaterial which "Sabbath" their false Christ keeps
You have to ask yourself which Sabbath did Jesus Christ keep sir? And when you figure it out, ask yourself why you don't follow Christ in that regard.
Sabbaths are never mentioned here. In fact, they aren't mentioned in Galatians at all. You would need to read that into this verse to believe it.
The Greek words Paul used for "days and months and seasons and years" are used throughout the New Testament in describing normal, civil periods of time. They are totally different from the precise terms Paul used in Colossians 2:16 specifying the Sabbaths, festivals and new-moon celebrations given in the Bible.
Basically this is referring to gentile pagan superstitions and days. The Galatian church was made up of primarily gentiles.
For a more indepth analysis, read this page. It goes a little deeper than what i did.
Paul's argument was that believers (whether Jewish or Gentile) were justified by faith. That Law had been set aside as a justifier, and been set aside as the rules of behavior.
In Acts 15, a council was convened because Judiazers followed Paul around convincing Gentile believers that justification by faith had to be accompanied by keeping the Law. Again, Paul's argument was -- we Jews can't keep the Law... (he who is guilty of one part, is guilty of it all), why subject Gentile believers to this unbearable yoke of slavery. The council agreed and instructions were sent out to the church of Antioch saying that Gentiles were not required to keep the Law of Moses. A letter from the Galatians asking him about this Law business was what brought Paul to Jerusalem, and after the council, he sent the Galatian epistle to the Galatians in answer to their questions.
Paul met these Judiazers again and again... some of his letters answered specific questions raised by the churches. Some letters, like 1 Thessalonians has some pre-emptive strikes against the Judiazers before they came.
Now, if keeping the Sabbath was something these Gentile churches were to do... why didn't Paul spell it out in the Galatian letter. When the Council sent direction back to the church in Antioch, why isn't keeping the Sabbath listed as one of the things Gentiles should do? If the Sabbath is as important as you claim... then why was John in the Spirit on the Lord's Day? (Sunday) When it is mentioned in Acts that Gentiles were meeting on the Lord's Day, why doesn't one of the Apostles correct this huge error?
Just questions...
I agree with much of your post. Christ within us is a type of rest, but our rest isn't yet totally fulfilled until we are with Christ in his kingdom. The 7th day sabbath is not only a reminder of who the true creator God is, but also a pointer toward the rest to come.
Paul is actually confirming and expanding the sabbath for the Hebrew believers...he tells them:
Heb 4:9 So that there is still a Sabbath-keeping for the people of God.
The 7th day was blessed and sanctified by God:
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and hallowed it; because that in it he rested from all his work which God had created and made.
In all the bible, it was never de-blessed or de-sanctified by God.
Sabbaths are never mentioned here. In fact, they aren't mentioned in Galatians at all. You would need to read that into this verse to believe it. The Greek words Paul used for "days and months and seasons and years" are used throughout the New Testament in describing normal, civil periods of time. They are totally different from the precise terms Paul used in Colossians 2:16 specifying the Sabbaths, festivals and new-moon celebrations given in the Bible.
Basically this is referring to gentile pagan superstitions and days. The Galatian church was made up of primarily gentiles.
Your reasoning would work, if Paul hadn't been talking about the Law. These verses wrap up Paul's thought which begins Galatians 3. "Who has bewitched you, O Galatians." Here, they had been offered so much and they were willing to trade it for something less than they had. The key of your verse is the how turn ye again to the weak and beggerly... Paul is talking about the Law. The days are not pagan holidays because the Galatians weren't turning back into pagans, they wanted to be Jews and keep the Law. Why, Paul is asking, would you trade liberty in Christ for a system of days, etc.
offered so much... life in Christ
trade it in... for the Law of Moses as a justifier.
I think that's correct as I understand it. Basically what some of the more strident jewish believers wanted to do was make gentiles convert to Judaism before becoming believers in Christ. Ask any Jew what a process this is and I suspect it was much more difficult back then. But you also need to distinguish between cermonial law and moral law.
Paul's argument was that believers (whether Jewish or Gentile) were justified by faith. That Law had been set aside as a justifier, and been set aside as the rules of behavior.
Correct as far as that goes..but of course it was also taught that results of faith were good works. Faith without works is dead said James.
In Acts 15, a council was convened because Judiazers followed Paul around convincing Gentile believers that justification by faith had to be accompanied by keeping the Law.
The issue was brought up specifically because there was an argument about whether gentiles had to be circumcised.
Again, Paul's argument was -- we Jews can't keep the Law... (he who is guilty of one part, is guilty of it all), why subject Gentile believers to this unbearable yoke of slavery. The council agreed and instructions were sent out to the church of Antioch saying that Gentiles were not required to keep the Law of Moses. A letter from the Galatians asking him about this Law business was what brought Paul to Jerusalem, and after the council, he sent the Galatian epistle to the Galatians in answer to their questions.
A letter was sent out gentiles had to keep a bare minimum of ceremonial laws.
Act 15:29 that you abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication; from which, if you keep yourselves, you shall do well. Be prospered.
But it's highly doubtful that they meant or taught that the moral law, the ten commandments could be ignored. If so then they giving the gentiles the go ahead to murder, steal and dishonor their mothers and fathers.
Now, if keeping the Sabbath was something these Gentile churches were to do... why didn't Paul spell it out in the Galatian letter. When the Council sent direction back to the church in Antioch, why isn't keeping the Sabbath listed as one of the things Gentiles should do?
Because they were *already* doing it. That's the day that Paul primarily taught to Jews and to Gentiles. That's the only day anyone had ever known for worship in the faith.
If the Sabbath is as important as you claim... then why was John in the Spirit on the Lord's Day? (Sunday)
The bible always refers to Sunday as the first day of the week. There was no "Lords Day" in biblical times. The Lord's Day in Reveleation is the Day of the Lord, the Lords Day, the day that John got transported to in spirit by Jesus Christ to see the future. If it really meant the Lords Day as a day of the week, then it would have to mean the Sabbath, because:
Luk 6:5 And He said to them, The Son of Man is Lord also of the sabbath.
When it is mentioned in Acts that Gentiles were meeting on the Lord's Day, why doesn't one of the Apostles correct this huge error?
What verse are you referring to specifically? I'm pretty sure I know, but I want to make sure.
Thanks for your reasoned responses. By the way, what church does your father belong to?
Also, the Sabbath wasn't kept in the Old Testament until the Manna fell in the wilderness. The day the Manna fell, the Sabbath was instituted. I do not believe that you have instances of the patriachs keeping the Sabbath. You don't see Israel in the land of Egypt keeping the Sabbath. It isn't until they are free from Egypt that the Sabbath is instituted, and again only after the Manna fell.
If they were gentiles, they never kept the Jewish holy days. How could they then turn back to them? Besides, like I said before, the greek words used are consistently used to denote civil times and days, NOT jewish times and days which are referred to by different words.
No, I don't because Paul didn't. The Law of Moses was all ceremonial, moral, and judicial. You don't see Paul in Galatians bring up the moral law.
This admission of the moral law is one of the things that had the Judiazers so upset. Without the moral Law, how do you expect these pagan Gentiles to behave properly. Paul has to address this "lack of moral law" over and over...
The standard of the New Creature is not the Law of Moses. The standard of the New Creature is Jesus. That is why win the churches began to sink back into "base" behaviour... Paul's admonishes them with a simple... "you have not so learned Christ."
The Galatians, feeling betrayed by Paul, write him a letter. They wanted to keep the Law of Moses. The letter back to the Galatians are why the Law of Moses had been set aside.
My point is what the beggerly things they wanted to turn back to was the Law -- with its forms, and symbols, and days... The verses you used has to be kept with the Chapter Three. To break them out and suddenly have Paul start talking about "pagan holidays" doesn't fit Paul's flow. They, the Galatians, wanted to keep all of it... Paul says don't turn back to that...
No, it would not...but, that's what the Judiazers thought Paul was teaching. But, Paul was teaching even a greater holiness than the Law of Moses... He was teaching Christ our life. And when Christ is your life you cannot do the things you've listed above. The Law of Moses couldn't stop you... but Christ within... yielding to Him (Paul - how I travail until Christ is formed in you) that's the standard of the New Covenant.
Doug's church does keep most of the levicital law I believe . They are not trinitarians and believe in a salvation by works. This may be a worthy discussion however
I have to go, so this will be my last post.
I think we are just going to frustrate each other. I don't believe the Lord's Day in Revelation was a special day in the future... I think I have to do some mental gymnastics to make it turn out like that, which, honestly, I can not do. The Lord's Day has always meant Sunday. Church history, I believe, will back that up.
Now, like I said, my father attends an Amstrong church, so, I know all the arguments that you will list for they have been listed for me countless times. And I don't agree with them. I have tried to make the Bible say those things, but it does not (in my opinion). God bless you!
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.