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To: malakhi
That may be. But the one sacrifice occurred 2000 years ago, right? If atonement can be 2000 years in the past -- and then made present, why can't forgiveness be 10 years in the past -- and then made present?

You could say the same for Jesus's "once for all time" atoning sacrifice. Still, the church teaches that the re-presentation of this sacrifice in the eucharist is not a "sacrificing again", but instead is a "making present" of the "once for all time" sacrifice.

I'm not sure we're connecting here. I'll try again.

Christ was sacrificed once. In history. To us, here, it is a done deal.

On the other hand, God uses the grace from the sacrifice to affect our lives constantly. The crucifixion happened once, but we can access its merits anytime through the Eucharist.

Likewise, the forgiveness available becasue of Jesus is available constantly. The forgiveness, too, comes from the Crucifixion. It is an effect, the Crufixion is the cause.

The first time I am forgiven sins by God is an effect of the Crucifixion. So is the 2nd, 3rd, and 654th time. They look back to the Cross, as the casue of the forgiveness.

The first time I was forgiven, then, is not an event from which to draw future forgiveness. The Cross is where to draw future forgiveness from.

When I take communion, I am not celebrating my First Communion again. I am celebrating the Event, the Crucifixion.

The pattern is that somethign happened once. But God makes the effects of that Event available to us at all times. I don't reach back to a previous incident of accessing the Event, I reach back to the Event itself.

SD

65,363 posted on 08/18/2003 9:03:26 AM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: SoothingDave; malakhi
You are saved Only Once!
65,382 posted on 08/18/2003 9:32:21 AM PDT by OLD REGGIE ((I am a cult of one! UNITARJEWMIAN))
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To: SoothingDave
The first time I am forgiven sins by God is an effect of the Crucifixion. So is the 2nd, 3rd, and 654th time. They look back to the Cross, as the casue of the forgiveness.

Yes and no. Maybe it is a matter of semantics. But the proximate result of the crucifixion would be atonement, not forgiveness. The crucifixion, then, is seen as a redemptive, rather than a soteriological, act. Only when the believer accepts this gift does the crucifixion have a salvational effect in his life -- i.e. his sins are forgiven.

I'm going to all your position "once TRULY saved, always saved", or "OTSAS", to distinguish it from the regular OSAS position. The distinction is that the OSASer believes he can know that he is saved, while the OTSASer believes that he cannot be certain of his own salvation.

The OTSASer theoretically holds that salvation is a one time thing, but views salvation (for practical purposes) in addition to sanctification as an ongoing process. The true "Conditional Salvation" or "CS" believer holds that not only can you not know if you are saved, but that you can be "truly saved" and subsequently lose your salvation. It is this belief that Becky rightly says is depending upon works to "keep" their salvation.

The OSASer believes that forgiveness is a "once for all" thing which occurs when the sinner believes and asks for forgiveness. What follows salvation is sanctification, the process of becoming more perfect, and of building up rewards in heaven. In a sense you could say that to a "saved" person, all sin is venial. The price of this sin is a straining (rather than a severing) of one's relationship with God, and temporal punishment. (I'd be willing to posit a purgatorial-type punishment in these cases).

The first time I was forgiven, then, is not an event from which to draw future forgiveness. The Cross is where to draw future forgiveness from.

You cannot be forgiven until you ask for forgiveness. The first time (in this context) you ask for forgiveness is not the crucifixion, but when you first believe and confess. That singular point is the connection between the general act of redemption and the specific acceptance of the gift of salvation by the individual.

65,390 posted on 08/18/2003 9:46:10 AM PDT by malakhi (Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.)
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