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The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)
Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

Posted on 03/30/2002 7:53:37 PM PST by malakhi

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.


Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

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TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: catholiclist; michaeldobbs
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To: SoothingDave
Looks to me like the writer (Paul) is saying that, in regard to one's salvation, ... God has begun a good work in you that HE will complete until the day of Jesus Christ. In other words, we don't have to worry about finishing this work, for God has said that He will.

Whew. I guess I'll just stay in bed then. God will take care of everything.


Actually, God will take care of the issue of your salvation.

What you do with your salvation, on the other hand, ... is up to you.

Per Paul ...
1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Let me go on to say that, ... that God has ordained works for us to perform as saved individuals (Ephesians 2:10), and, we, surely should perform this will of God.

But if we don't, God will do it for us and we'll still slide into Heaven. What a philosophy.


Not a philosophy ... scripture.

65,361 posted on 08/18/2003 8:58:32 AM PDT by Quester
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To: Quester
I guess you're back at work, A_Thinker:)

Becky
65,362 posted on 08/18/2003 9:01:42 AM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain (Prov. 9:7-8)
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To: malakhi
That may be. But the one sacrifice occurred 2000 years ago, right? If atonement can be 2000 years in the past -- and then made present, why can't forgiveness be 10 years in the past -- and then made present?

You could say the same for Jesus's "once for all time" atoning sacrifice. Still, the church teaches that the re-presentation of this sacrifice in the eucharist is not a "sacrificing again", but instead is a "making present" of the "once for all time" sacrifice.

I'm not sure we're connecting here. I'll try again.

Christ was sacrificed once. In history. To us, here, it is a done deal.

On the other hand, God uses the grace from the sacrifice to affect our lives constantly. The crucifixion happened once, but we can access its merits anytime through the Eucharist.

Likewise, the forgiveness available becasue of Jesus is available constantly. The forgiveness, too, comes from the Crucifixion. It is an effect, the Crufixion is the cause.

The first time I am forgiven sins by God is an effect of the Crucifixion. So is the 2nd, 3rd, and 654th time. They look back to the Cross, as the casue of the forgiveness.

The first time I was forgiven, then, is not an event from which to draw future forgiveness. The Cross is where to draw future forgiveness from.

When I take communion, I am not celebrating my First Communion again. I am celebrating the Event, the Crucifixion.

The pattern is that somethign happened once. But God makes the effects of that Event available to us at all times. I don't reach back to a previous incident of accessing the Event, I reach back to the Event itself.

SD

65,363 posted on 08/18/2003 9:03:26 AM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
Because feelings can deceive you.

I know my master voice!

I know when I feel seperated from the Lord and when I am in his presents.

John 14:
27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

2 Thes. 3:
16 Now the Lord of peace himself give you peace always by all means. The Lord be with you all.

65,364 posted on 08/18/2003 9:05:37 AM PDT by restornu (Always keep your words soft and sweet, just in case you have to eat them.)
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To: malakhi
Knowing that I was "already forgiven" I might be tempted to go ahead and sin.

So could knowing that your sins are already atoned for.

My sins are not "already" forgiven. That's my point. The atonement was made, but it is not applied to me until I repent and ask for forgiveness. There is no "already."

That's my point. I don't think it is possible to truly "repent" and to desire wholeness and forgiveness for somethign we have not done yet. It defies experience.

Certainly God didn't give the Israelites a one-shot forgiveness for all sins past and future. Every year they need to examine themselves and desire forgiveness for what they have done.

SD

65,365 posted on 08/18/2003 9:07:11 AM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: restornu
That's good. But you KNOW that because of scripture not because you feel good. You feel good because of what you know. Is what I am saying is that when you don't feel close, When things are bad and you feel alone, God is still there, that is why we have peace, because no matter how we feel God will not leave us, He is there to help ALWAYS.

Becky

65,366 posted on 08/18/2003 9:11:07 AM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain (Prov. 9:7-8)
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To: drstevej
The urination comment appears on his profile page currently. What's your point?

And you come up with ideas and talk about using super propane torches to burn people. That makes you, so much better, right?

65,367 posted on 08/18/2003 9:12:04 AM PDT by ET(end tyranny) (Psalm 146:3 -- Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.)
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To: restornu
Unless one is of the SOP, for the SOP can never be saved.

Meaning that even God could not save them, or that they refuse to be saved?

65,368 posted on 08/18/2003 9:17:56 AM PDT by malakhi (Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.)
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
Because feelings can deceive you. Your assureance of salvation comes from knowing what God says in His word and trusting it. I know when I am not as close to God as I could/should be, and I do feel bad, but I KNOW I am not close because of what God says not because of what I feel.

Yep, right on target!

65,369 posted on 08/18/2003 9:18:44 AM PDT by malakhi (Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.)
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To: malakhi
I'm sure there are honest Mormons out there who could accuratly give information about Calvinism. The funny thing about Doug's post was he wasn't decrying inaccuracy in Rn's posts. Just that he didn't think you should go to to someone who isn't a UCofG (Cambellite) memeber.

To take you example even further. Should I ask someone who disagrees with Communism for what Communism teaches?
65,370 posted on 08/18/2003 9:20:11 AM PDT by Wrigley
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To: RnMomof7; CARepubGal; DouglasKC
Ping
65,371 posted on 08/18/2003 9:21:01 AM PDT by Wrigley
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
James says that Abraham showed his righteouness by his offereing of Isaac,

How was it shown?

18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Obedience.

65,372 posted on 08/18/2003 9:21:27 AM PDT by ET(end tyranny) (Psalm 146:3 -- Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.)
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To: DouglasKC; RnMomof7
Too bad Rn hasn't done that. Strawman.
65,373 posted on 08/18/2003 9:22:59 AM PDT by Wrigley
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To: SoothingDave
If I haven't even done the sin yet, there is no way I can atone for it.

We don't atone for our sins ... God does.

And aren't you (and me) the ones who're always saying that God exists outside of time ?

65,374 posted on 08/18/2003 9:23:51 AM PDT by Quester
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To: SoothingDave
Knowing that I was "already forgiven" I might be tempted to go ahead and sin ...

... unless you are really "for God", ... rather than "anti God".

65,375 posted on 08/18/2003 9:24:00 AM PDT by Quester
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To: RnMomof7
I see you burned his strawman before I could.
65,376 posted on 08/18/2003 9:24:50 AM PDT by Wrigley
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
I guess you're back at work, A_Thinker:)

Yep!

65,377 posted on 08/18/2003 9:25:08 AM PDT by Quester
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To: ET(end tyranny)
Why don't you read the verse I gave.

v.12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearsest God, seeing hou hast not withheld ty son, thine only son from me.

Becky

65,378 posted on 08/18/2003 9:25:22 AM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain (Prov. 9:7-8)
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To: DouglasKC; RnMomof7
So, is Rn's description incorrect?
65,379 posted on 08/18/2003 9:26:23 AM PDT by Wrigley
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To: SoothingDave
You had some ad hominy for breakfast?

Why do you ask? Are you the "Protestant" expert? Are you qualified to speak for what "Protestants believe"?
65,380 posted on 08/18/2003 9:26:37 AM PDT by OLD REGGIE ((I am a cult of one! UNITARJEWMIAN))
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