The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[malakhi]

What if we do the same thing over and over again, but with no expection of different results?

I'm making light of this, but I do have a few serious points. First, there is the matter of how what we say might influence lurkers on the thread. Second, the opposite dictum is "if at first you don't succeed, try try again". Suppose a friend of yours is ill, and you pray for their recovery? Do you stop praying if the prayer is not answered immediately? Remember the Canaanite woman from Matthew 15.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

That explains the 10% Jewish population of the Roman empire and the large numbers of righteous gentiles who worshipped the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Of course, it was hard to accept converts later on when conversion likely meant persecution and/or death. Nevertheless, there were in fact converts from Christianity to Judaism even in the middle ages, including a Catholic bishop and archbishop.

The crowd goes WILD!!!...fireworks...gunshots...their doing the WAVE!...great event...I gotta go now, that guy broke my copy machine. :)

BigMack

[ksen]

I can't tell you how many Catholic preachers I've heard rail against "working" your way into Heaven and yet people here still think we believe that if you donate enough money to charity or help enough old ladies across the street you get in even if you know nothing of Christ. Bunk.

Then what would happen to your soul if you stopped doing all of those things, including your Sacraments?

-Kevin

[SoothingDave]

You are merely wrong, you are not any enemy of God.

Amen, say it again.

If only some of our detractors could say the same thing.

SD

[malakhi]

The crowd goes WILD!!!...fireworks...gunshots...their doing the WAVE!...great event...I gotta go now, that guy broke my copy machine. :)

LOL!

[SoothingDave]

Then what would happen to your soul if you stopped doing all of those things, including your Sacraments?

Under what conditions? Voluntarily? What would happen o your body if you stopped eating and drinking liquids?

SD

[ksen]

Under what conditions? Voluntarily?

Yup.

-Kevin

[Wordsmith]

Then what would happen to your soul if you stopped doing all of those things, including your Sacraments?

To paraphrase one of the wiser NC's I know, "orange trees bear oranges." ;-)

Sacramental Christians believe that partaking of the sacraments is what Christians do. It is the fulfillment of God's will for how we should live as Christians.

To turn it around, what if I ask you what would happen to your soul if you stopped being charitable? I would expect you to say that you wouldn't, because you have been born again. And that if you did, it would call in to question the initial authenticity of your belief.

[malakhi]

Then what would happen to your soul if you stopped doing all of those things, including your Sacraments?

A good question, Kevin. IMRight, would you mind commenting on the following?

Given how precious the Mass is plus the Old Testament precedent which was rightly adapted by the Church, the Code of Canon Law (#1246) proscribes, "Sunday is the day on which the paschal mystery is celebrated in light of the apostolic tradition and is to be observed as the foremost holy day of obligation in the universal Church." Moreover, "On Sundays and other holy days of obligation, the faithful are bound to participate in the Mass..." (#1247). Therefore, the Catechism teaches, "Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit grave sin" (#2181), and grave sin is indeed mortal sin. Recently, our Holy Father, Pope John Paul II, repeated this precept in his apostolic letter Dies Domini (Observing and Celebrating the Day of the Lord, #47, 1998).

[SoothingDave]

Under what conditions? Voluntarily?

Yup.

Well. As I hinted at, frequent reception of the sacraments (really just Communion and Confession, we aren't into frequent Marriage or Baptism LOL) is food for our souls. If one chooses to distance himself from such then he is choosing to not avail himself of the gifts that God gave to help us grow spiritually. Without an intense life of prayer and discipline, and maybe even with, a person who starves his soul is in danger of losing it.

I can't imagine why someone would voluntarily do this.

SD

[malakhi]

Without an intense life of prayer and discipline, and maybe even with, a person who starves his soul is in danger of losing it.

It is amazing, then, that all of those who are not sacramental Christians are not spiritually dead.

[SoothingDave]

Sacramental Christians believe that partaking of the sacraments is what Christians do. It is the fulfillment of God's will for how we should live as Christians.

As usual, the East comes in and fills in the other side of the equation.

Hey, do you guys have the equivalent of our "Chrism Mass" tomorrow? On Thursday of Holy Week, all the priests gather at the Cathedral and all of the sacred oils are blessed and distributed to the various parishes. This in a concrete way establishes the unity of all Catholics to the Bishop. I imagine with your larger districts this may not be practical, but was wondering if there is some analog.

SD

[malakhi]

Okay, you have to see this:

A Polite Ad Of Teleporter Machine Written by a very, very strange man

[SoothingDave]

It is amazing, then, that all of those who are not sacramental Christians are not spiritually dead.

Blessed be God. He gives us not what we need, but more than what we need. There is no doubt that His Spirit operates outside of the official structure of Sacramental Christianity.

(The conduit for that grace is another question)

SD

[JHavard]

Big Mack-It is an assumption on your part based on logic that the eternal life Jesus' speaks of in v.'s 53-58 is spiritual not physical. Why not use the same logic about his speaking of eating his flesh.? Logic based on the fact that the Law said Jews were forbidden to drink blood, forbidden by God to eat human flesh.

Fury-Gee, that's what I've been doing. To me, it's plain what John 6 is saying, as it is the rest of Scripture.

Fury, let me reason with you, if Jesus literally turned bread to human flesh, and wine to blood, and the disciples knew and understood what he had done when he gave them the bread and wine at the Passover meal, do you believe then that they now understood that the laws of clean and unclean foods were done away with from this time on?

JH

[IMRight]

A good question, Kevin. IMRight, would you mind commenting on the following?

Not at all. It has very nice paragraph formating, though it is rather wordy. :)

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

It is amazing, then, that all of those who are not sacramental Christians are not spiritually dead.

Another "WAVE" just broke out at the party, people are chanting "angelo" "angelo" "angelo" "you da man" "you da man" "you da man" its geting wild here, I think some one called the cops, I gotta go outside and talk to them.....

BigMack

[SoothingDave]

First, what is a teleportation machine, in my head, consist of?

Basically, there are two parts. The first part is the sending part. The second part is the receiving part. We teleport an object from the first part to the second part.

Brilliant! Why didn't I think of that?!

SD

[Havoc]

You wake up! One is born again in Baptism. And the grace of Baptism flows from the Sacrifice. I don't teach that the Eucharist is the experience that makes one "born again." It's a lot easier to make up stuff and then attack that, instead of listening, isn't it?

Sorry, don't have to make up stuff, all I have to do is quote scripture or allude to scripture and the false doctrines just pour fourth from you. You are saying that one partakes in the sacrifice through your Eucharist. It's a false, unsupported notion that you're floundering in. Participation in the sacrifice happens through being born again which the Apostles say is done through Believing and confessing. You are the one spinning a different version. Now you're saying we're born again through baptism - the which is a crock. Acts shows that men did three things and in this order 1) were born again 2) were baptised 3) were baptised in the Holy Spirit. Baptism too is something that happens after being born again - it isn't the event. According to the way Jesus and the Apostles taught us, you are getting the cart before the horse - no, worst, you're confusing the two. Open your eyes and look at what was taught by the Apostles and by Jesus. Cause they didn't teach the garbage you're peddling here!

[IMRight]

Then what would happen to your soul if you stopped doing all of those things, including your Sacraments?

The same consequences of any other sin. There is a price to be paid, but we already have a receipt. This assumes that the fault is sin and not an intentional rejection of Christ. That becomes a new topic for another day.