Posted on 03/30/2002 7:53:37 PM PST by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
You'll find there's no contradiction. Havoc just explained himself a few posts ago. That's what happens when your attempts at "straining gnats and swallowing camels" fails.
MEJust as I don't badger you and allend for disagreeing that the account in Genesis about Noah is historical. Which one of you are wrong? Arent you supposed to be on the same page? So either you or allend are wrong. See how silly that sounds?
YOUYes, but neither allend or I claim that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit will lead us to all Truth without taking into regard the teeaching of the Church.
Neigh but rather you have much larger claims. You might balk at the numberous examples of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the book of Acts which was offered to individuals and not organizations. You claim the Holy Spirit guides the Big C catholic church organization in all doctrine. Right? Any doctrine some human being Catholic wants to set up automatically gets the stamp of the Holy Spirit on it.
Since you and Havoc and all the other NC's believe that the Holy spirit will infallibly guide you to all truth, when you guys contracdict it is more important.
I didn't know the Holy Spirit was finished leading us into all truth. Where in the Bible does it say all that has stopped? Nevermind, you've proven over and over you can't find anything beyond John chapter 6.
It means either the Holy Spirit is lying to one of you, or one of you is following a demon or their own vanity instead.
No what it mean is that Satan is lying to your organization telling skulls full of much that we know everything there is to know. However, we know that's not true whatwith today's state of emarrassing affairs.
Honest question Dave. Who has the Holy Spirit? You or the alleged 50% of catholic homo priests? Pretty big contradiction there. Eh Dave?
You forgot to mention the pederasts. Try to do better or you'll lose your union card.
Can I get an answer to this question. I demand an answer. Or I'm gonna cry and act like a baby for awhile.
Becky
That would explain the headache and the dry eyes. I thought it was just allergies ...
Thanx for your reply, I'm in danger of getting more dust on me but here goes. :)If I understand what you have posted right, you are saying were all right if we hold onto what Christ did on the cross for us, but you still hold to the teachings of the catholic church on how to receieve the grace and I hold to the faith only teachings only and we both could be in sin because of our error if either of us is wrong, but we both will finish the race inspite of ourselfs, is that about right?
One of the characteristics of the last days will be widespread deception on earth. The Lord Jesus is coming back soon and the devil and his hordes know this. The devil has already been judged and knows his fate is eternity in hell. He hates God and His creation. Right now spiritual battles are being fought for the souls of men and women. The devil knows if he can deceive a person so that they die without the Lord Jesus as Saviour then that person will spend their eternity in hell, the lake of fire.
The dangers of deception:
Matthew 24:4 4. And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Matthew 24:11 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Matthew 24:24 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mark 13:5 5. And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any [man] deceive you: 6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am [Christ]; and shall deceive many.
It is interesting to note that the Lord Jesus repeated Himself several times while warning about deceivers and deceptions. There is a clear warning about deceptions coming into the world. In fact the danger is so real that the Lord Jesus felt it necessary to repeat the warning more than once. I think everyone should take heed to the warnings about deception due to the importance that the Lord Jesus put on that subject. Don't feel you are somehow exempt from deceptions. Everyone should prepare themselves so they may withstand all the deceptions of the enemy.
The deceptions will center around the simple plan of salvation found ONLY in the Lord Jesus Christ. Deceivers have the goal of leading people to hell. That is accomplished by misleading others so they will not accept the ONLY way a person may be saved, the Lord Jesus Christ!
ONLY ONE WAY TO BE SAVED!
In the Bible God makes it clear that there is only ONE way to be saved and that is through the salvation provided by the Lord Jesus Christ. Here is what the Bible says about the only way a person may be saved:
Acts 4 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
John 14 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Romans 6 23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
The above verses give a good view of the fact that salvation is only found in the Lord Jesus Christ. He is the ONLY way to be saved and as a result all other so-called ways lead to destruction and hell.
How many deceivers are out there? Is it just a few people or will deception be widespread? The apostle Paul gave a warning before his death. He could have spoken on any subject but chose the topic of deceivers. Look at the following Scripture for the answer about how many deceivers are in the world:
Acts 20 28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
This warning from the Apostle Paul plus all the warnings from the Lord Jesus about deceivers indicates that there will be many people who are deceivers. This is a great warning of danger and it should be heeded.
2 John 1:7 7. For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
God became a man (the Lord Jesus) and died on the cross in payment for sin. He now offers salvation to all who will receive His love gift with a repentant, trusting heart. Everything needed for salvation was completed at the cross. The death of the Lord Jesus and His shed blood is all that is needed to wipe out the stain of sin forever. However deceivers deny this and attempt to add on to the finished work of the Lord Jesus on the cross. The center of salvation is shifted away from the Lord Jesus Christ to the person who must perform certain rituals, works, penance, or purgatory in order to merit favors from God and remove sin. In teaching this, deceivers have denied the fact that salvation is a free gift. Salvation is a gift to be received by faith and not earned by works of any kind.
BigMack
Are priests allowed to have chutzpah? Maybe since Vatican II. LOL
Actually, this is a good question. The homosexual dissident group Dignity recently had a special day where they went to Mass at the Cathedrals of some of the major Sees. They wore special "sashes" to indicate clearly who they were. Some Bishops refused, recognizing them as dissidents (actively homosexual and proud of it, that is). Others (their enablers) gave them communion and when questioned hemmed and hawed about how it was unclear that they were practicing homosexuals.
I've never heard of any actual excommunications taking place, though some have said that the only chance you have to get excommunicated is by badgering a liberal bishop to do his job.
(Certain things do of course result in automatic ex-communication, like abortion or helping to procure one. And one in a state of sin should not be receiving communion anyway, if technically not "excommunicated.")
SD
I can't dispute that. But you might want to be careful cuz those Big C's get awfully upset when they can't hog all the credit for stuff. :-)
Actually, no. I know of many who prefer the DR langauge (like the KJV) as seeming more "reverent". And some who "prefer" it the way you prefer the RSV. But many KJV only types consider ALL other translations (even the NKJV) to be, at best, deficient. I've read that they all use incorrect manuscripts that were corrupted by Rome. I think I got it off Mack's website, so we can ask him for the article.
I agree with Dave here.
Medic! Medic! I'm having chest pains! :)
The modern RSV, for example, is probably a more accurate translation than many, if not all, earlier translations.
Really? I use Young's literal or the NAB for scripture study, and the KJV or DR for worship. If I'm really serious, of course, I use online copies of multiple translations. I have problems with the NIV, but use it on occasion with interdenominational bible studies since everyone else seems to have it.
Paul said he got his training by direct revelations for the resurrected Jesus Christ. Undoubtedly the Holy Spirit had a part in his edification process. At that time before the Word of God was completed, holy men spoke as motivated by the Spirit. However today with the completed Word for edifying us, the Spirit works in a different manner, and that being through the Word of God. A favorite saying of a good friend is that "the Holy Spirit of God uses the Word of God to do the work of God." I agree with that fully!
I think we're talking about two different things here.
And here, I'm sure of it. You're talking about those being taught by the Apostles while I'm talking about the Apostles themselves. Some of Paul's own flocks were still in the flesh as his own writings bore out. The Catholics of today are Still in the flesh as they are doing the same things Paul was complaining about - putting more emphasis on men than on the word of the Most High. In the case of the Apostles, the devience from teaching was not their doing. In the case of the moderns, the deviance is from the top down. The Apostles settled points between themselves and God by going back to what the Master taught and what the Holy Spirit Highlighted there. You can see this at work in the scriptures.
The people Paul addressed who were carnal Christians and babes in Christ were nonetheless saved people. Today's churches are filled with carnal believers and the natural man, which is unsaved, but think they are because they participated in a religious rite, ceremony, ordinance or some other type of work rather than simple faith in the gospel message. The gospel messages the Apostles taught and that Paul espoused are different. I have been told there are some thirteen gospels in the Bible - no wonder there in confusion in the Body of Christ! The Apostles went back to what Jesus taught them because that was their commission and their message was to the Jews only. Paul took the gospel of the grace of God to the rest of the world, and that's the gospel by which we are saved today.
We're not talking about operating under the penalty of the law. But as Paul said, being free of the penalty doesn't make us free to sin at will. If that were the case, all the Apostles wasted a lot of print in warning us to keep ourselves as free from sin as possible - seeking the righteousness of God rather than the ways of the world. Just because you're born again doesn't mean God now thinks it's fine for you to go out and break every commandment and law he set down as things that are displeasing before him - nor does it say it's fine for you to go out and willfully break even one. Being weak is one thing.
Willful disobedience is quite another. If God's rules didn't matter anymore, then the warnings against false teachers and false doctrine were a waste of breath and men could just do whatever they pleased - carte blanche, if you will. Don't confuse justification through the law with abiding by the law - they are not one in the same thing. If God defined it as sin, it's sin now as much as it was then. And if the law didn't matter, God would not have promised in latter times to write it on the hearts of His people. What did Jesus say repeatedly in forgiving sin and healing "Go and sin no more." Wow, huh. Get outta here and don't do wrong again. The law tells us a great many things about what God views as sin. Not being under the penalty doesn't mean sin is no longer sin. 'Go and sin no more' is not a lifting of what the definition of sin in it's multiple forms is. The Law is a guide now as much as it was then for helping us to see things that are plainly wrong in God's eyes. God has already ruled on them. So it's not as if we need to go before God and ask if it's sin to be a homo. He didn't free us so we could be as sick as Sodom and as debased as Gamorah. And both history and prophecy yet to be fulfilled address this point.
Grace motivates us not to sin, even though we sin as long as we are in the flesh. But that's no excuse, and you are absolutely correct. Regarding the commandments, we could never keep them anyway no matter how hard we try. The law's purpose is to point out our sin and our inability to overcome sin on our own. Paul says the law is our "schoolmaster," in Gal. 3:24, with the purpose to "bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith." Once we are justified by faith (Eph. 2:8,9), then the law has served its purpose in us. Paul also tells us in Col 2:13, that "And you being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses." The "all" means all of our past, present and future sins. With the sin issue being taken care of by Christ's blood on the cross, we can then have the freedom to serve Him our of love and gratitude rather than for reward or out of fear of punishment.
There will always be false teachers among us. Today Satan is going around as an "angel of light" using his three-phased policy of evil. He attacks the message by corrupting the Word and thus confusing people, which goes back to Genesis 3; he attacks the messenger, or men who are teaching the Word correctly, to get them to teach Scripture, but incorrectly; and he intimidates and embarasses the messenger to get him to quit teaching. In the future after the Body of Christ has been raptured, the believing remnant of Jews will have to endure many false christs and teachers, which is laid out in 1John. You ever wonder why we have so many denominations and Bible versions (some 400 now) today?
But Becky was ok with my answer. Why I gotta wade through all this? :)
How about "moxie"? ;)
Remember Eve was the one deceived not Adam, he just went along, but knew better, Becky is too kind and trusting, but I know you. :)
BigMack
It's supposed to point different people to different conclusions. It serves that purpose by leading the carnally thinking in one of many directions while sending the spiritually minded in the correct direction. Same reason Jesus spoke in parables - to confound the Carnally 'wise'.
Consecration of bread and wine is not an end in itself. The consecration of the bread and wine is one of the "acts" of the eucharist. Only a priest or a bishop in apostolic succession can celebrate (or preside at) the eucharist validly. So it would follow that only a priest or bishop in apostolic succession can consecrate the bread and wine.
:)
Becky
I guess the question then becomes, who determines who is in valid apostolic succession?
Pardon? Would you mind clarifying this? Your Bible was amended to fit your Tradition? Thanks for the admission.
-Kevin
Jesus did something that profits us; but it was spiritual. You are saying that the bread is literally Jesus when he was saying it was symbolically Him. Either way the flesh profits nothing. Just because you invoke the name of Jesus doesn't make Jesus a liar in what He himself said - the which you are doing in a backhanded manner. I'm not sure what you're calling a contradiction; but, considering your ability to understand metaphors, I'm not overly surprised that you'd see contradiction in anything that you don't like.
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