Posted on 03/30/2002 7:53:37 PM PST by malakhi
Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
So that only leaves 10 you ignored then, Okay.
Well no, those first ten were the Scripture I posted to start this whole thing off. You already had my opinion on that.
I naturally still don't accept that Scripture trumps Scripture. It can't. And we are just going to have to disagree on the Crowns I guess. I am obviously not knocking any scales off your eyes.
Finally, I never intimated you did not believe in good works. My closing comment was an observation on the amount/percentage of Scripture you require to be saved. Or perhaps the amount of Scripture you are required to observe/believe in order to be saved.
You have made a choice as to whether Believe simply means "Believe in Me", or whether Believe means "Believe in who I am and follow these instructions." In a Book so filled with instructions and additional requirements, I think you have made the wrong choice.
I think the requirement is quite a bit higher than you seem to, but I never implied you or your congregation were not meeting those requirements. (As I said before, it is the weaker lambs that I believe are lost because of OSAS, because if they do not follow the instructions, they will be lost.)
Those requirements, by the way, have not changed, as you joked in your closing paragraph. The entire body of the New Testament contains the entire requirement, and it is because of what is written there that I attempted to clarify what I maintain is your continuing error.
v.
You kiddin'? If she saw that post we wouldn't have been talking about what Doug said or didn't say all day. :-)
If I'm remembering correctly we just pay our monthly and then if I kick the bucket the wife gets 250,000 and the kids get 25,000 apiece. There's no gaining interest or collecting what I pay into it or anything.
Yeah, the conversation would have been alot more interesting:)
Becky
The problem isnt Scripture trumping Scripture, its your believing that all Scripture mentioning work, must be pertaining to Salvation, and you seem unwilling to admit the Scripture is clear that there are crowns given for our works.
Since you are wrong on your claim that no one receives crowns, as its obvious you were, then it puts a hole in the middle of your works = Salvation theory.
Finally, I never intimated you did not believe in good works. My closing comment was an observation on the amount/percentage of Scripture you require to be saved. Or perhaps the amount of Scripture you are required to observe/believe in order to be saved. You have made a choice as to whether Believe simply means "Believe in Me", or whether Believe means "Believe in who I am and follow these instructions." In a Book so filled with instructions and additional requirements, I think you have made the wrong choice.
Thats funny, as I read the New Testament, I find very little correction, or as you say things were required to keep. A lot of it is telling us about people who kept adding burdens to the people to secure their own power base, so its there to help us avoid falling into the same trap again.
When Paul and Barnabas went to the Jerusalem Headquarters, to discuss what should be taught to the Gentiles, they all agreed on a simplistic outline of things they should work on.
The Jews kept trying to burden the Gentiles by telling them they had to keep the Law of Moses to be saved, and when they finally got away from that system, the men who were trying to build the church into a mega organization ended up doing the same thing.
I think the requirement is quite a bit higher than you seem to, but I never implied you or your congregation were not meeting those requirements. (As I said before, it is the weaker lambs that I believe are lost because of OSAS, because if they do not follow the instructions, they will be lost.)
Do you believe NCs loose more people to Satan by teaching them how simple it is to have eternal salvation, then your Church, from the thousands of your own believers who have not only left your Church but have left God over the corruption in your hierarchy?
Those requirements, by the way, have not changed, as you joked in your closing paragraph. The entire body of the New Testament contains the entire requirement, and it is because of what is written there that I attempted to clarify what I maintain is your continuing error.
I am where God put me, so there is no chance I am wrong on my beliefs about Salvation. It would be interesting though to do a study on how much of the NT is required keeping, and how much of it is telling us what we dont have to do.
With Gods Holy Spirit in our lives, there seems to be no burdens that are required to keep, all we do is allow the Spirit to work in us, and there are no bumps left in the road.
I used to hate having to study the Bible, now I have to force myself to put it down. I used to dread praying, or meditating, and usually fell asleep in the middle, but now I have to make my self get away to other things.
Possibly someday you younger people will have the same blessing, and youll see how easy the burden is, and just how light the load. Mt 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
Thats why I have trouble seeing this harsh taskmaster that some of you see or want to see, and thats why I get so upset when I see how hard you seem to make accepting the free gift of Salvation God has offered you.
JH :-)
There seems to be no question that man can fall and fail to "overcome" and thereby lose eternal life or the "crown". It talks about resisting temptation and the entire chapters seem to affirm Ventana's contention that one can fall from grace and lose eternal life despite,at one time believing and being faithful.
I would be interested in all of your interpretation of those two chapters since I fail to see how it could be possible to read and understand it differently than I do.But then again I may be one who has eyes but does not see.Thanks for your input. I'ss be especially interested in how you read it JH.
I don't know Jim. I certainly see the corruption in the Church as having separated many from God, I believe that has been the main intent from the beginning.
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