Posted on 01/03/2002 11:19:13 AM PST by ArGee
God makes the determination. Our lives are an open book.
You mean it's necessary to stereotype a group before you can choose to be what you call tolerant?
Me? I call it religious bigotry.
Practicing this same "trait identification" has been the excuse for countless acts of racial, gender, nationality, and religious intolerance. Most, of course, perpetuated by those who consider themselves the "enlightened ones."
Enjoy your delusions.
Actually, multiple witnesses testifying to having witnessed a person or event does constitute admissible testimony, independent of other evidence. Indeed, multiple witnesses tend to corroborate each other. Heck, eyewitness testimony is often entered as evidence; without physical corroboration it's not as strong, but it is admissible.
Very well said. I've never seen an invitation, let alone the guy running the banquet! All I've ever seen are third and fourth hand accounts of possible invitations. That's not good enough in my book!
I suggest otherwise has been the case. . .
Consider that The Infinite [Jean-Paul Satre noted that for the finite to have meaning it must have a connection to the infinite--a connection he never seemed to find]. . . . of choice, perhaps a kind of necessity given the other rules of the game insuring FREE WILL, CHOICE for us mortal critters . . . .
Consider that The Infinite must of necessity muffle Himself enormously to still routinely allow Free Will. He, on occasion, interjects more overtly into this sphere and, indeed, into individual lives. He occasionally even does it with nonbelievers.
But on the whole, He allows His Creation to speak of His majesty. He knows that dramatic enough design and majesty reside there for those truly given to seeking Him to "get it" . . . to "get it" enough to deepen and intensify their search beyond merely observing the majesty of Creation.
He has insured that "those who seek Me, will find Me." He has NOT insured that those who refuse to seek Him will be FORCED to find Him--that is until final judgement.
One can get on an arrogant high horse and insist that God is not playing fair. . . . merely because God doesn't play by THEIR particular script.
But I wonder, assume you graduate from university. You have 3 companies you dearly aspire to work for. Your most sought company with an excellent record and growth prospects offers you a golden position with lots of reward, power and creative options to show your skills.
Would you take your new job and immediately demand that the CEO construct it differently; change the corporate culture to your design; kowtow to your sensibilities on a list of issues; restructure key principles and operating dynamics to conform to your preferences and demands?
I doubt it. If you did, you probably wouldn't have a 2nd day on that job.
God is God. He does things HIS way. It so happens, they are the best ways for us. They allow FAITH sufficient for Relationship without forcing us to be robots. This requires a measure of subtlety routinely on His part. He longs to dance with us more overtly. But there's a price for That Ticket. LOVING HIM AND LOVING OTHERS demonstrates we won't be sleepers joining the club only to try and destroy it from within later.
Contrary to some philosophies, we don't have to crawl on our knees to some manmade statue. We don't have to earn some list of merit badges. We don't have to be born perfect. We don't have to be born bluebloods. We don't have to be born in the right country. We don't have to have a certain level of IQ or EQ or bank account.
In fact, the humble, childlike prostitute or beggar seems to have a head start with Him.
Not too difficult for those who REALLY WANT to KNOW HIM.
We watch the movie CONTACT and take in stride the complex message to decode and then the "one small step" "been done that way for billions of years."
Yet the same folk nodding agreeably with that scenario rage at God for something similar. The message is far less coded though there are coded things aplenty for those thrilled with such. It is still a somewhat hidden message that those WITHOUT the earnest desire to KNOW HIM; without the earnest desire to exercise the measure of faith they were born with--those resistent folk will find the message obscure to unconvincing.
HOWEVER, Those with an earnest HEART-FELT HUMBLE DESIRE TO KNOW HIM will find that their childlike faith is very rich in results when exercised . . . and that the message becomes clearer and more obvious the closer to Him we get. A third of the angels rebelled with satan. Why should He bother with that kind of nonsense again? But actually, it's more for our protection. The more overt His presentation of Himself and the more overt our responding rebellion, the MORE SEVERE the reaping what we have sown.
I don't really think the problem is that you have no evidence sufficient to seek Him out. The problem is you can't make Him over in your image so you refuse to have a relationship with Him. I don't consider that God's problem.
would not even think to IMAGINE DEMANDING that the U.S. President, governor, mayor . . .
meet the average citizen totally on the citizen's terms, turf, rules, preferences.
YET, such individuals get huffy, indignant and justify running the other direction because Almighty God, Creator and sustainer of ALL THAT IS--requires them to meet HIM on HIS terms.
A kind of curious, mindless hypocrisy, to my view.
No, that is not what I mean at all - I mean exactly what I posted. Go back and read it again.
You are either angry because you misunderstood what I posted or you are just spinning my words because you have a chip on your shoulder. The fact that you reverted to insults so quickly says a lot about you.
Practicing this same "trait identification" has been the excuse for countless acts of racial, gender, nationality, and religious intolerance.
Anyone with a pulse and a fraction of a heart practices "trait identification". Honesty, integrity, knowledge, beauty, wit, charm, respect, friendliness, and respect are all traits. If we didn't practice identifying traits, what information would we use when choosing our friends and mates? The traits I was referring to (snobbiness, intolerance) are personality traits which are commonly considered undesirable by people of all races, genders, nationalities, and religions. I identify these traits in individuals, not groups. I said nothing to indicate I attribute either of these traits to any whole group of people. If I had, you actually would have a valid reason for calling me a bigot. But I didn't (because I am not).
I do not know how you could honestly interpret this as "religious bigotry" without employing convoluted logic or poor reading comprehension skills. You should make sure you understand what someone has said before you start spewing insults. In the future, if you want to cite something I have posted use exact quotes. Don't spin what I say by paraphrasing it into some gross misrepresentation and tell me that your misinterpretation is what I must "really" mean.
Enjoy your delusions.
Which one of us is delusional? You seem to think you're psychic! How else would you think you can tell me what I really meant? Or do you consider yourself to be one of the "enlightened ones" you referred to in your post?
There is no problem in life to which a good solution is willful irrationality and naivete. The term used for those people in any other context is "suckers". What makes this particular case any different?
Ummm....no. They view the premise of your assertion as quite apparently false, which falsifies your conclusion. ANY argument predicated on a premise flimsy enough that all parties can't agree on it is a poor argument. If you want people to listen to your assertion, you need to shore up your assumptions first. Putting the cart before the horse is neither good form nor reasonable argumentation.
An exclusive nightclub in NYC.
The people who get into the club think they were the ultimate in human beings. They have have great distain for the those who do not get into the club.
T:
There is no problem in life to which a good solution is willful irrationality and naivete. The term used for those people in any other context is "suckers". What makes this particular case any different?
I think you misconstrue my statements enormously. . . perhaps you misconstrue reality as well.
A sucker can be someone who is overly given to swallowing his own personal distortions on reality as absolute truth.
Q:
YET, such individuals get huffy, indignant and justify running the other direction because Almighty God, Creator and sustainer of ALL THAT IS--requires them to meet HIM on HIS terms.
T:
Ummm....no. They view the premise of your assertion as quite apparently false, which falsifies your conclusion. ANY argument predicated on a premise flimsy enough that all parties can't agree on it is a poor argument. If you want people to listen to your assertion, you need to shore up your assumptions first. Putting the cart before the horse is neither good form nor reasonable argumentation.
It appears that we have insufficient common language. If you are unwilling/unable to see other than you have asserted above regarding my statements, I have little hope or expectation that you will see any better from any other statements I might make, regardless of how logical, well presented, solid the foundational origins of those statement might be.
It remains quite reasonable to me that God declares in an amazingly congruent set of 66 documents that "The Heavens declare" His majesty etc. It remains quite reasonable to me that He reasonably and wisely declares "The fool has said in his heart, there is no God."
I forget whether it was Aldus or Julian Huxley who asserted that (possibly paraphrased--I don't recall for sure exactly)'We killed God off so we could screw like bunnies.'
As God pointed out in the above mentioned Scripture--it's REALLY a HEART issue, not a logic issue.
When the HEART SAYS: "I WILL do MY own thing!" and/or "I will NOT do God's thing." . . . no amount of logic, well presented beginning assumptions, propositions and arguments etc. will win any significant ground.
C.S. Lewis, Josh McDowell and a host of others present whatever logic, argument, solid foundational assumptions etc. sufficient for any normal court room. IF you seriously want to find a logical basis for faith, you will search them out. If not, you won't. I have other fish to fry. Thanks anyway.
"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" -from THE BIBLE: John 11:25,26
My questions:
What will this messiah be like?
If Jesus didn't (doesn't) fit the bill, what will be the attributes of the future messiah?
Did your ancient prophets describe him?
Just who/what are you waiting FOR?
You have faith that the god of the bible doesn't exist, for you cannot prove that he doesn't.
"Why go off to war? You'll just get a bunch of folks dead. Why not just learn how to speak the other guys language? And, 50 years from now, the 'enemy' will have switched to become your trading partner.
Why rush into a burning building? It may collapse on you and them other folks are probably dead anyway."
WOW, you must be Miss Cleo. You claim psychic powers now!
You have faith that the god of the bible doesn't exist, for you cannot prove that he doesn't.
Yet another fallacy. The lack of evidence decrees there is no compelling reason to believe your assertions.
Again, I have no faith.
"Well, then WHY wasn't it recorded in the bible how he does it?"
Valid question........
I've just proven one of your statements wrong. This prayer has not been answered.
(By YOUR definition of QUICKLY anyway.......)
2 Peter 3:8-9
8. But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.
9. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
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