Posted on 01/03/2002 11:19:13 AM PST by ArGee
A very rich man decided that he wanted to show kindness to the people of the fair city where he lived. Since he was very rich indeed, he decided to throw a banquet for the entire city. He rented the largest sports arena in the city and began his plans. He planned for huge amounts of the best food possible, making allowances for every religious and medical diet. He advertised the banquet in every possible manner - television, radio, billboard, door-to-door canvassing. Considering that there might be some who could not travel, he arranged for free bus transportation to and from the event, and some special-needs vehicles for all who could not ride busses. He even scheduled the banquet to run for 24 hours a day for several days so that everyone could be sure of being served.
He planned long and hard and finally the big day came. The rich man ate quickly and then went about wishing all his guests well and personally making sure that all had every need met. After a while he went outside to tour the grounds and talk with those who had not yet gone in, and those who had already left. Everyone was happy. Many were profusely thankful. It was a glorious occasion.
At one point the rich man noticed a group of people sitting outside a locked door with most unpleasant looks on their faces. Sensing they were not happy, he went over to them. He did not introduce himself but simply asked them if he could be of service.
"We want to go in through this door," one of them replied.
The rich man explained to them that the hall was arranged to feed a large number of people as quickly and effortlessly as possible. This required order inside, and the entrances and exits had been carefully planned to be as efficient as possible. He then offered to go call one of the golf carts that were avaialbe to help people who could not walk far to take them to the entrance. But the man replied, "We do not want to go in the entrance. We want to go in this door. We don't understand why we can't go in any door we wish. We think the man who set this banquet up is mean and hateful for insisting we go in through the entrance. He has tried to bill himself as a very kind man by offering this banquet, but he is not kind at all if he will not indulge us and let us go through this door.
The rich man was distressed at these words, but still attempted to please these people. He tried once more to explain to them what was behind this particular door, and how if they went in this door they would disrupt the meal service being offered inside. He offered to drive them himself, not only to the door, but inside the hall to their tables if they would only go through the entrance to enjoy the meal. Again the man said, "No, but only a hateful man would keep us from going through the door of our choosing. And we will sit here and tell anyone who will listen to us what an awful man he is until he lets us in."
At that the rich man was enraged and he shouted, "Enough." Then he called a police officer to have them thrown off of the property and ordered that they not be allowed to return until the banquet was over and all the scraps had been hauled away. Then, mourning for their loss, he turned to visit with other guests.
I got one.... But my name was spelled incorrectly.
I doubt that seriously.
You want an intelligent answer concerning one place or the other. There is Genesis that tells us that God created the Heavens and the earth. But, I do realize you likely do not hold much respect for the Bible.
The Bible is unverifiable, ergo, it is no more or less reliable than The Iliad where supernatural beings and places are concerned.
Consider, two facts that you must face. That our universe/matter/energy is eternal or that there is a higher being that is eternal and created what we see and don't see. I believe it takes more faith to believe that matter is eternal.
Occam's Razor demonstrates that the universe being more eternal is far more logicval than adding an eternal creator to the mix (as religion does).
LuvItOrLeaveIt, there is no possible way you will understand with your intellect the Christian faith.
I understand Christian faith all too well, hence I am an atheist.
Just for a moment choose to believe there is a God.
I cannot do that. I must have independently verifiable evidence to support the assertion that any god exists.
This most high being has all the intellect---it passes all understanding. He doesn't give a flip about our intellect with all that He has. No, he does not want our minds or our intellectually understanding, He wants our hearts. He wants your heart. Surely you've noticed the differences in your very life between matters of the heart and matters of the intellect. If it took intellect, LIOLI (you sure have a long name), where would that leave the mentally handicapped? It is the heart that God wants of us. If you could for just a moment ponder the very idea of God and then see your position to God and be willing to open your heart up long enough for Him to show himself to you-----oh, the wonder you would behold. But, there are no words I can use nor anyone else. It has to do with your willingness or your rebellion.
Meaningless gibberish because I cannot have faith in your alleged god.
I've said too much. I'm sorry. I'm sad for you that you think you know when really you do not. I do not say that in a prideful way. I rebelled myself. I thought I knew. Then, one night, the Lord just came and showed Himself to me and gave me faith to believe that He was who He said He was. May the Lord visit your heart and reveal Himself to you in a mighty way. ~Boxsford
I'm sad for those who believe in invisible friends, but I will defend to the death their right to believe in them.
Pease stop your twisted manipulations. The only reference to "swine" was when I was quoting scripture, and you know it. I called you nothing but afflicted, and you have again proven my assertion of your malaise.
You pretend to want to discuss the issue in good faith so that you can repeatedly insult and defame The Word. Nobody who is 'discussing in good faith' will twist and distort what is being said in order to create an unfair impression of their debater.
You don't fool me, and you have no intention of fairly considering the Truth. You only so pretend so that you may lead others down your own sad path to eternal damnation.
Neither do you fool God, or even yourself. I pray for you.
Oh please...
You stated that discussing these things, was approaching "casting pearls before swine".
Yos stated further, that I was infected with a malaise.
At least have the integrity to be honest with yourself.
Human reason, yes. Infinitely limited human reason, yes.
I have seen you make this point several times owk, and I have to offer another perspective. I notice you treat death and suffering in this life as always evil. Why is that? When I spank a small child for mis-behaving am I defying reason by causing the child's suffering, or am I trying to teach the child so that he will live a better, happier more ordered adult life than the one to which a pampered, spoiled brat has to look forward?
Now, I understand that from human reasoning, death is the final solution. It is the end and that is why our pagan society considers anything technology does to increase the human life span to be above all things heralded. Which is 180 degrees from Paul's statement, "for us to die is gain."
But let me offer an analogy to explain the Christian perspective. I admit all analogies fall short, but this might, at least, cause you to attack the issue from a different direction.
I compare this life to the afterlife as I would compare my public school years to adulthood. Now, if I think that after I graduate from High School, I cease to exist, I would want to stay in school as long as possible. I would not care about my grades and would party all the time. Being held back a few years would be a good thing. I would consider it very cruel for parents to make their kids study instead of party. If someone was grounded, I would consider it a tremendous cruelty. After all, if life ends the day you graduate, what logical reason would there be for going to class, doing homework, learning a work ethic or any of the other things we, of course, know that kids are being taught (by loving parents, at least) before they're 18. From the perspective of the kid that believes life ends at graduation, that is a bad event to be avoided. You would even consider it cruel to remove a kid early to home school him or send him to private school. But then, your reasoning is highly limited at that age. You are not allowed, and for good reason, to make these decisions for yourself…
I could go on and on, and there are plenty of holes in this analogy. But maybe it will allow you to consider the possibility that your human reasoning, as superior as it is to many people (and, quite frankly, I think it is), is still flawed.
Being the smartest sheep in the herd still makes you a total nincompoop compared to the shepherd. Sometimes the smartest sheep are the ones who learn to follow the "good shepherd" because they understand that, as good as their reasoning capacity may be, it still leaves them sorely ill equipped for the journey they are on, whether they chose to go on the journey or not. I'm smart enough to know that I don't understand all the nooks and crannies of the valley of the shadow of death through which we now journey - but he does.
OWK, with all due respect, where we are headed, your and my "reasoning ability," on it's own, is just enough to get us in a world of hurt. There may just be some things we really don't know - that without His help, will only get us in deeper. I'm glad your still on this thread, BTW…
I continue to pray for you.
I have done nothing but offer my opinion of the subject in good faith. Apparently such discussion causes you a certain degree of discomfort, perhaps even bordering on fear. As such, you lash out at what you consider to be an antagonist.
But the fact is, I simply don't believe what you believe. I am certainly entitled not to, and am entitled to state my reasons for doing so. You would think that someone such as yourself would have a little more confidence in his beliefs, so that he could discuss them with others without the emotional silliness.
It really isn't necessary.
I am thankful that others who share your faith, can manage to discuss the subject without resorting to such things.
I have twisted and distorted nothing. I have represented the truth as I see it. I'm sincerely sorry if this causes you discomfort, or if it makes you feel "unfairly treated". But that is the way it is.
I have indeed considered every single post in this thread, and have done so fairly, and in good faith. And even having done so, I do not recognize your beliefs as the truth. Apparently it is inconcievable to you, that someone could look at the available evidence, and conclude that your position is not supported by it, but I can assure you that this is precisely the case.
Once again, I'm sorry if this causes you discomfort.
Sad? On the contrary. I am at peace with my life, and I am a generally happy human being. I lead a moral life, I care for others, I achieve, and I enjoy the wonders of the world. I ask no other man to live for me, and I harm no one. If your God should still choose to slow-roast me on a brimstone spit for all eternity, because I failed to acknowledge his existence, then let him do so. I have no interest in spending eternity with such a God.
I think that is great. I do hope there is more, however. After all, Jesus said that if you believe there is one God, you do well. The devils believe, and tremble.
Christianity asks us, no, offers to us, the opportunity to go farther - to actually have a one on one relationship with God. Not as you would another human, for He is not human - But a personal relationship nonetheless.
>>Please don't tell me that I am only fooling myself, and am not truly free, and that if I was, I would not think as I do.<<
By all means, I won't then. Keep searching. It is a lifetimen endeavor for all of us.
I cannot fool God, because he does not exist.
I do not allow myself to be fooled, because I apply the human faculty of reason in matters requiring discernment.
You can keep your prayers, or perhaps apply them to your own search for happiness.
You seem a profoundly miserable man.
We are not talking about a spanking my friend. We are talking about death. Death at the hands of a vengeful God. The end of earthly existence.
And what many fail to consider, is that we are expected to believe by the expositors of the faith, that we must make a choice IN THIS LIFE, as to whether or not we will recognize and follow God's heavenly invitation.
And so when God chooses to kill in "righteous anger" those who have yet to make such a choice, he removes from them, the opprotunity to later hear and decide. He condemns innocent men women and children to hell, in a fit of murderous rage. Or at least that's what the Bible says.
And so we see a paradox. We are expected on the one hand to beleive that God is the epitome of love, morality, and righteousness... and on the other hand, we are expected to believe that he judges nations, and exacts vengence indiscriminmately against those who happen to be unlucky enough to be in the way.
Both cannot be true.
Dynamo,
OWK's questioning has the potential to serve two purposes and should not be seen primarily as an offense. OWK seems to be seeking knowledge of that foundation which believers as you or I already claim to know. Answering in a constructive manner founded on sound biblical principles serves to both broaden OWK's and strengthen your understanding - much like exercise strengthens the body. We don't always perform those exercises correctly, so - when wrongly done - they could adversely affect our body's progress.
Just a thought...
Az
That must be it.... Maybe Harry Potter has me in his evil clutches.
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