Did Christ Pay Our Penalty?

Substack ^ | 07/27/2026 | Dn. Carlos Miranda

[TexasKamaAina]

The first thing we should recognize is that the Bible frequently employs legal, sacrificial, military, familial, agricultural, and medical imagery to describe salvation. None of these images stands alone. Each illuminates one aspect of the mystery, but none is intended to become the entire explanation of the Cross.

[TexasKamaAina]

His answer is "Yes...and more."

[Mercat]

He opened the door but we need to walk through.

[Salvavida]

Nope. Only those whom the Father had given him, before the4 foundation of the world. Romans 9; Ephesians 1.

[Scrambler Bob]

Nope. Only those whom the Father had given him,
= = =

Did The Father give you to Him?

Did the Father give me to Him?

So I am given or not. So I just live it out doing whatever and the given or not determines my destiny. Is that right?

[Salvavida]

Dude. Take a course. Do some research. Read John 10.

Find a pastor that knows how to teach the Bible. But please don’t insult everyone’s intelligence by asserting Jesus died for everyone. Romans 9 squashes that, among other places.

[roving]

Catholics don’t think so.

[Scrambler Bob]

If I was chosen by God or not, can I do anything to change that?

So it seem I can live however I want, and I am chosen, or not, irregardless of any of my actions.

That’s what you seem to be saying.

Jesus did die for everyone’s sins, but not everyone will accept his offer to be forgiven. Those who do and those who do not are known by God before time even started, but their choice is by their will.

[Salvavida]

If I was chosen by God or not, can I do anything to change that?

No, you can’t. That is the whole point Paul was making in Romans 9. He even wanted to take their place, if it were possible. It grieved him. The only reasonable human solution is to “work out your salvation with fear and trembling” (Phl 2:12).

“I can live however I want...” No. You can’t. Romans 6. If you choose that path, that is evidence you are not part of the flock. (1 John 3 with emphasis on verses 6 and 9).

I think this extraordinarily short essay will really help you out, as the Big Dawgs in church history have wrestled with this: https://www.monergism.com/inability-free-will-vs-free-agency

Good discussion. Other short reads are Greg Gilbert’s “What is the Gospel?” and William Chantry’s “Today’s Gospel— Authentic or Synthetic?” Well worth your time.

[Texas_Guy]

What do you mean by that?

[af_vet_1981]

If I was chosen by God or not, can I do anything to change that?

Actually, yes, you can which I will demonstrate from the scriptures below.

The whole point Paul was making in Romans 9 was about Israel, not limited vs universal atonement.

What Paul was doing in Romans 9 was playing the same role that Moses played when he interceded for the Israelites, albeit with the knowledge of Moses' intercession and the LORD's response to him. Romans 9 is about Israel.

[1] I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
[2] That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
[3] For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
[4] Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
[5] Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.


Exodus 32:
[9] And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:
[10] Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.
[11] And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?
[12] Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.
[13] Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.
[14] And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.


...

[30] And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.
[31] And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
[32] Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
[33] And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.


Exodus 33:
[16] For wherein shall it be known here that I and thy people have found grace in thy sight? is it not in that thou goest with us? so shall we be separated, I and thy people, from all the people that are upon the face of the earth.
[17] And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.
[18] And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
[19] And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

And since Romans 9 is about Israel, here is what the LORD said about Israel through his servant Moses in Deuteronomy 30:

[1] And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
[2] And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
[3] That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
[4] If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
[5] And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
[6] And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
[7] And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.
[8] And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.
[9] And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers:
[10] If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
[11] For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
[12] It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
[13] Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
[14] But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
[15] See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
[16] In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
[17] But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
[18] I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
[19] I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
[20] That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

[af_vet_1981]

If I was chosen by God or not, can I do anything to change that?

Actually, yes, you can which I will demonstrate from the scriptures below.

The whole point Paul was making in Romans 9 was about Israel, not limited vs universal atonement.

What Paul was doing in Romans 9 was playing the same role that Moses played when he interceded for the Israelites, albeit with the knowledge of Moses' intercession and the LORD's response to him. Romans 9 is about Israel.

[1] I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
[2] That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
[3] For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
[4] Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
[5] Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.


Exodus 32:
[9] And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:
[10] Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.
[11] And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?
[12] Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.
[13] Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.
[14] And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.


...

[30] And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.
[31] And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
[32] Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
[33] And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.


Exodus 33:
[16] For wherein shall it be known here that I and thy people have found grace in thy sight? is it not in that thou goest with us? so shall we be separated, I and thy people, from all the people that are upon the face of the earth.
[17] And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.
[18] And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
[19] And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

And since Romans 9 is about Israel, here is what the LORD said about Israel through his servant Moses in Deuteronomy 30:

[1] And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
[2] And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
[3] That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
[4] If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
[5] And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
[6] And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
[7] And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.
[8] And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.
[9] And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers:
[10] If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
[11] For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
[12] It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
[13] Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
[14] But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
[15] See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
[16] In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
[17] But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
[18] I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
[19] I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
[20] That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

[Joshua]

1 Corinthians 3:10-15
10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

[Scrambler Bob]

If you choose that path,
= = =

So do I have free will to choose that path, or alternately to choose God?

Can we agree on that? I have taken the path to choose God.

[Salvavida]

OK I read it. But I don’t see your point. Can you explain your interpretation please?

Wouldn’t make more sense that by looking at the text, chapters 9-10 is about the sovereign work of God in salvation? Isn’t that the main thrust?

If we understand the structure of Romans being:

1-2 The indictment against the entire world, both Jew and Gentile

3-5 The Doctrine of Justification

6-8 The Doctrine of Sanctification

9-11 God’s Sovereign Work Through the Jews and Gentiles Towards Salvation

12-16 Therefore (because of chapters 1-11), this is how we are to conduct ourselves

This is pretty consistent how the Reformers saw Romans. And looking at it.....isn’t it true?

Chapter 9 talks about Israel. No question. But the point he is making in unmistakeable in 9:6-8. Not everyone in national ethnic Israel is of spiritual Israel (the children of promise). The children of promise is then explained. The gospel message goes out (chapter 10) Then the doctrine of adoption is added, and we gentiles are grafted into the tree (chapter 11), thus WE GENTILES BECOME PART OF SPIRITUAL ISRAEL.

But getting back to Bob’s original question, unless there is sovereign mercy applied (Romans 9), and since no one seeks God (Romans 3:9-20), then everyone is SMOKED unless He acts. The idea of Free Will is Free Wrong. To say otherwise is to not understand sovereignty, nor understanding what God has already said: No one seeks Him. He alone turns the heart (Prov 22).

[Salvavida]

It’s more accurate to say: God is either drawing you or has drawn you to Him.

Granted, it will seem like you chose Him........but the Bible doesn’t support that. That is where the Free Will theory comes in. It really does seem like we figured it all out and made a choice. But once you start studying it out.....you realize it cannot be supported. We love our pride.

That is because of “Revivalism: The Making and Marring of American Evangelicalism”, by Iane Murray. Long story short: the colonial pastors detected the twisting of Scripture 40 years before the United States was a thing. In the twisting....We humans started making spiritual declarations that are only reserved for the work of the Holy Spirit (John 3). It continues in the church today. I highly suggest you get a copy.

So in summary, he took the initiative and knew you before the foundation of the world, placing you with him Eph 1).

The evidence will be: 1. you journey towards him by way of discipleship (Luke 9), 2. your hatred of sin and everything contrary to him (the entire Bible) 3. your thirst for righteousness (Mt 5) and evidence of sanctification. 2 Cor 3:18

This will not be limited to a mental assent to the facts of the gospel. That is where most people are at, because the American church has hyper-focused on the Doctrine of Justification, forgetting the necessity of Sanctification. So they get saved and stay in their sin.

You will thirst for him. You will not be able to stay in sin.

[af_vet_1981]

OK I read it. But I don’t see your point. Can you explain your interpretation please?

The Apostle to the Gentiles is explaining to the Romans (Jew and Gentile) that his brethren according to the flesh remain Israelites, to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; [5] Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever.
and he ends that with Amen (אָמֵן,) which means

AI Overview
אָמֵן (amen) translates to English as "truly," "verily," "certainly," or "so be it." It comes from the root 'aman, which means to be firm, steadfast, or trustworthy. In the New Testament (transliterated from Greek amēn), it is used to confirm a statement or prayer.

Wouldn’t make more sense that by looking at the text, chapters 9-10 is about the sovereign work of God in salvation? Isn’t that the main thrust?

...

Not everyone in national ethnic Israel is of spiritual Israel (the children of promise).

The two people used in that example were not Israelites (Ishmael and Esau). The Apostle confirms that national ethnic Israel are indeed Israelites. The third example is from Moses, where we leave the natural branches up to God, and contrary to the limited option, they can indeed be grafted in again to their own olive tree, being natural branches. I notice that was not said about the Gentiles about whom the Apostle introduced in the Israel discussion. I would not necessarily take that to mean "once lost, always lost."

Out of time for now, but I'll leave you with this, which barely preceded my earlier scriptural reference in Deuteronomy 30, when pondering these questions.

Deuteronomy 29:29
The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

[Salvavida]

I am still not getting it.

Are you saying that the Apostle, in chapter 9 is explaining how the Israelites remain Israelites, and don’t become Christian?

I am reading, and re-reading the passage, and the plain sense of Romans 9:1-5 is the Apostle anguishing over Israel’s rejection of Christ, the very Christ of whom the entire construction of his doctrine came from (out of the flesh), from a nation that was charged with maintaining the oracles of God.

The “amen” in verse 5 is directed towards Christ. That is the immediate context.

There is no universal or limited atonement. He is grieved that he can’t take their place.....because he knows that they are heading for condemnation. This is AFTER the gospel was presented in chapters 3-5, with the accompanying evidence of sanctification in 6-8.

How then does it fit to separate the Israelites at this point, when he had already made the point that EVERYONE is indicted under the Law in chapters 1&2?

[ShadowAce]

There is no universal or limited atonement.

?? The only other option here is NO atonement.

Why was Christ sacrificed?

[Salvavida]

You came in late to the conversation. We are talking about Romans 9.

[af_vet_1981]

Are you saying that the Apostle, in chapter 9 is explaining how the Israelites remain Israelites, and don’t become Christian?

The Apostle to the Gentiles is writing that even those Israelites who did not (yet) believe in Yeshua as Messiah are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

I am reading, and re-reading the passage, and the plain sense of Romans 9:1-5 is the Apostle anguishing over Israel’s rejection of Christ, the very Christ of whom the entire construction of his doctrine came from (out of the flesh), from a nation that was charged with maintaining the oracles of God.

The “amen” in verse 5 is directed towards Christ. That is the immediate context.

Actually not; it is directed towards the Israelites and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came. Thus the Amen refers back to what the Apostle just wrote about the Israelites, and we are supposed to agree with the truth that he just wrote.

Try a simple search on the word "Amen" to see how the one participating in saying it is believing and assenting to what precedes it.