Cardinal Müller in Interview: "Pope a successor of Peter, not of his predecessor"; "Pope not a symbol of secularized religion"; "We cannot accept that atheistic Communists, enemies of humanity, write our catechism books."

Cardinal Müller granted the following interview to Iacopo Scaramuzzi, for Italian daily Repubblica, and published yesterday:

“The future pope is not a successor of his predecessor but a successor of Peter": thus German Cardinal Gerhard Ludwig Müller, a member of the conservative wing of the College of Cardinals.

“A chapter in the history of the Church has closed. Clearly, the last judgment is up to God, we cannot judge people. If we talk about the pontificate, however, there are different opinions. There is unanimous appreciation for Francis' engagement with migrants, the poor, and to overcome the divisions between the center and the periphery. On the other hand, however, at some moments he was somewhat ambiguous; for example when, with Eugenio Scalfari, he spoke about the resurrection. With Pope Benedict we had perfect theological clarity, but everyone has his own charisms and abilities and I think Pope Francis had them more in the social dimension.”

Did you appreciate that Francis ruled until his last breath, without resigning?

“Yes. Clearly I don't want to criticize Pope Benedict for his decision but I have always said that we must avoid the impression that the pope's mission is only a function. Resignation must be an exception, one cannot think that the apostles have retired....”

Should the next pope in his opinion change the blessing of same-sex couples?

“He needs to clarify that. The document approved under Francis was meant to help these people pastorally, but the Catholic doctrine of marriage should not be relativized.”

“The bishops have an authority that cannot be confused with the possibility of all the baptized to speak. It is a conference, which is legitimate, but it is not a synod, it is not an expression of the Magisterium of the Church. Clearly those who understand nothing or little about Catholic theology say: now the Pope changes the Church from an autocracy to a democracy. But it is a wrong premise to confuse the Church with a political organization, like the World Economic Forum or the United Nations.”

Pope Francis appointed a woman prefect of a Vatican dicastery: will it be good to repeat this kind of choice in the future?

“The problem is not the woman, the problem is a layman called to preside over what used to be a congregation, which is an expression of the authority of the College of Cardinals. The impression of people from the outside was, 'Ah, at last a woman!' And I think that when it comes to administrative offices like the Governorship, there is no problem with it being run by the laity, but the Roman Curia is an ecclesiastical body.”

Pope Francis has been very committed to dialogue with Islam: should it be continued in your opinion?

“Already St. Thomas Aquinas distinguished things: on the level of reason; we can dialogue with them: they respect certain principles of natural ethics and believe in God in their own way. However, we must ask ourselves how it is possible that one who believes in God, the creator of all men, can kill in the name of God. Dialogue, yes, but avoid all forms of relativism: the Catholic faith is not a singular expression of a universal world religion created by the Davos forum.”

Bergoglio signed a historic agreement with China: will this path be continued?

“Compromises are reached with these powerful dictators, but we cannot betray the principles of our faith, we cannot accept that atheistic Communists, enemies of humanity, write our catechism books or bring the image of Xi Jinping into the churches. We cannot accept Communists appointing bishops.”

“Every pope must serve the mission of St. Peter: he is servus servorum Dei. The future pope is not a successor of his predecessor but a successor of Peter.”

Do you think your positions are shared in the College of Cardinals? Do you feel you are a minority?

“It may be that some say, 'These theologians talk, others are pragmatic, they think more about power, influence...' I don't know. Everyone needs to remember that we are the mystical body of Christ, and not an international humanitarian and social organization. This pleases a lot of secularized people, the elite, the oligarchs, who would like the Pope as a symbol of their religion -- but the Pope is not a symbol of secularized religion.”

Hi Pogo -- you asked Were all the churches that Paul started Catholic? Were the 7 churches mentioned in Revelation Catholic? "

Let's look at the churches that Paul visited. What were their characteristics?

They had a visible, authoritative hierarchy - bishops, deacons, priests (an episcopal structure) and had Apostolic succession
Paul ordained bishops (presbyters/elders) and deacons by the laying on of hands in every church (Acts 14:23; 1 Tim 4:14; 5:22; 2 Tim 1:6; Titus 1:5).
He commanded obedience to those who administrate over the local churches (1 Thess 5:12–13; Heb 13:17).
That is the same episcopal structure everywhere in the New Testament
They were in visible communion with one another under the apostles and their successors i.e. that they were part of the One "Catholic" i.e. universal church of God

Paul took up a collection “for the saints” in Jerusalem and delivered it personally, showing one unified Church, not independent congregations (Rom 15:25–28; 1 Cor 16:1–4; 2 Cor 8–9).
The council in Acts 15 bound all the churches with a single decision—exactly the pattern of a universal visible Church.
They celebrated the Eucharist as a real sacrifice and the true Body and Blood of Christ

Paul calls it “participation in the blood of Christ… participation in the body of Christ” (1 Cor 10:16) and says unworthy reception makes one “guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord” (1 Cor 11:27–29).
That is the same Real Presence and sacrificial understanding later called “Catholic.”
They were called “the Church” or “the churches of God” in the singular catholic (universal) sense

Paul speaks of “the Church of God” (1 Cor 10:32; 11:22; Gal 1:13) and “all the churches” sharing one faith, one Lord, one baptism (Eph 4:4–6; 1 Cor 12:28; 14:33).

Now, let's look at the Churches in the book of Revelation of St. John

The seven churches addressed in the Book of Revelation—Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea (Rev 2–3)—were literal Christian communities in first-century Asia Minor (modern Turkey), founded during the apostolic era and under the direct spiritual oversight of the Apostle John who was their bishop.

They were called part of the Catholic i.e. "universal"church and these churches embodied the foundational characteristics of the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church as described in Scripture.

This starts with their number - 7, a very symbolic number in a book (the book of Revelation) that is filled with numeric symbols (it IS an example of apocalyptic literature and uses numbers like 3, 4, 6, 666, 12, 1000, 12000 etc with specific sense)

St. John's authority as bishop over these 7 churches
Patmos is off the coast of Asia Minor, near Ephesus, one of the seven churches. John addresses the churches directly with prophetic messages from Christ, exercising a pastoral role: "What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches" (Rev 1:11). This implies he had ongoing responsibility for them, much like Paul's epistles to his founded churches (e.g., 1 Cor 1:1–2; Gal 1:1–2). The letters contain commendations, rebukes, and calls to repentance (e.g., Rev 2:4–5 to Ephesus; Rev 3:15–16 to Laodicea), mirroring the bishop's duty to "shepherd the flock of God" (1 Pet 5:2; Acts 20:28).
Apostolic succession

The Gospel of John and his epistles (1–3 John) reflect a community centered in Ephesus, where he addresses issues like love, truth, and false doctrine (1 John 4:7–8; 2 John 1:7–11), overlapping with Revelation's themes (e.g., Rev 2:4 on Ephesus losing its "first love"). Acts records Paul's establishment of the Ephesian church (Acts 19:1–10) and his farewell to its elders (Acts 20:17–38), warning of future wolves—a prophecy John seems to fulfill by correcting those same churches in Revelation. This suggests John succeeded Paul as the regional apostolic overseer, a pattern of succession seen in the NT (e.g., 2 Tim 2:2).
Unity as One Universal Church:

Christ addresses them as a collective whole, with John sending one scroll to all seven (Rev 1:4, 11), symbolizing their interconnectedness despite local differences. They share "one Lord, one faith, one baptism" (Eph 4:5), and Christ's warnings apply universally (e.g., Rev 2:7: "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches"—plural). This reflects the NT's vision of the Church as a single body with many members (1 Cor 12:12–27; Rom 12:4–5), not independent entities. The churches' issues (e.g., false prophets in Pergamum, Rev 2:14–15; lukewarmness in Laodicea, Rev 3:15–16) are corrected with appeals to shared apostolic truth, emphasizing catholic (universal) fidelity.
Apostolic Succession and Hierarchical Structure

Each church has an "angel" (Greek angelos, messenger), namely its bishop or overseer (Rev 2:1, 8, etc.) not a heavenly being, whom Christ holds accountable (Rev 2:1: "To the angel of the church in Ephesus"). This mirrors the NT's appointment of bishops/elders (Phil 1:1; 1 Tim 3:1–7; Titus 1:5–9) and deacons (Acts 6:1–6; 1 Tim 3:8–13). Paul had already established this in Ephesus (Acts 20:17), and John's oversight continues it, showing a chain of apostolic authority (2 Tim 2:2). The churches are praised for testing false apostles (Rev 2:2), upholding the true apostolic faith passed down (Jude 1:3; 2 Thess 2:15).
Sacramental and Liturgical Worship:

The letters assume practices like the Eucharist, implied in warnings against idolatry and immorality (Rev 2:14, 20; cf. 1 Cor 10:14–22, linking idol food to the Lord's Supper. Repentance and perseverance (Rev 3:3, 19) align with baptismal renewal (Acts 2:38; Rom 6:3–4) and confession (James 5:16; 1 John 1:9). The "tree of life" promise (Rev 2:7; 22:2) echoes Eden and the Eucharist as life-giving (John 6:51–58)
Doctrinal Fidelity and Moral Discipline:
The churches are called to hold fast to sound teaching against heresies like the Nicolaitans (Rev 2:6, 15), reflecting the NT's emphasis on guarding the deposit of faith (1 Tim 6:20; 2 Tim 1:14). They must "overcome" through faith and works (Rev 2:26; 3:21; cf. James 2:14–26), showing justification involves enduring in holiness (Matt 24:13; Heb 10:36). This is the universal ("catholic") faith once delivered (Jude 1:3), not fragmented interpretations.

In summary, these churches were "Catholic" because they formed part of the one visible Church Christ established (Matt 16:18), united under apostolic bishops like John, practicing sacramental worship, and holding to the universal faith amid trials. Revelation's messages call them to remain faithful to this foundation, which the broader NT describes as the household of God (Eph 2:19–22) and the body of Christ (Eph 5:23–32)—the same Church that endures to this day.

Pogo, apologies for the long post above - I tried to be thorough.

But the summary is simply -

Those first-century churches Paul planted and the seven in Revelation were “Catholic” yet, as they were the one, visible Church the New Testament describes:

- ordained bishops/elders (Acts 14:23; Titus 1:5),
- one communion binding all believers (Acts 15; Rom 15:26),
- the Eucharist as Christ’s real Body and Blood (1 Cor 10:16; 11:27–29),
- one Lord, one faith, one baptism (Eph 4:4–6).

one visible family under apostolic oversight (John was their bishop, writing to them with Christ’s authority, Rev 1:11–20), sharing one faith, one baptism, one Eucharist (1 Cor 10:16–17; 11:23–29), and one binding leadership (Acts 15; Titus 1:5).

They were called to hold fast to the apostolic teaching and traditions (just like 2 Thess 2:15).

That’s the only Church Scripture knows—one, holy, universal (catholic), and apostolic.

Everything later called “Catholic” is just the same Church, still going.

Peace and love in Christ! 🙏

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Cardinal Müller in Interview: "Pope a successor of Peter, not of his predecessor"; "Pope not a symbol of secularized religion"; "We cannot accept that atheistic Communists, enemies of humanity, write our catechism books."

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