Posted on 10/15/2024 6:28:41 AM PDT by Cronos
Description: While most Pentecostals are orthodox, there is a segment within this movement of “Oneness” or “Jesus-Only” Pentecostals who are not. This movement denies the Trinity, arguing instead that Jesus is himself the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Many also hold that a person’s sins are not forgiven unless they’re baptized “in Jesus’ name” (not “in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit”). Many also believe that a person cannot be saved unless they “speak in tongues” and that a person must abide by certain strict holiness “standards” to be saved. In Oneness Pentecostals and the Trinity, Dr. Gregory Boyd (who was himself once a Oneness Pentecostal) exposes the biblical errors these people commit in arriving at the non-orthodox views they embrace.
Greg’s story behind the writing of Oneness Pentecostals and the Trinity: In 1974 I surrendered my life to Jesus Christ and had a powerful encounter with God. It happened to be in a Oneness Pentecostal church. We were taught that no one other than Oneness Pentecostals were saved. I of course found this hard to accept, but my powerful experience with God combined with what seemed at the time to be compelling biblical arguments forced me to accept this perspective. Before too long, however, my compulsive reading of theology and my own studying of the Bible led me to reject the doctrines of this church and embrace orthodox trinitarianism.
In the mid-80s I began to get requests from people inside the Oneness camp who were beginning to question some of its teaching and who wanted help working through some of their doctrines. I led occasional Bible studies with these sincere folks, but was disappointed to discover that there was no literature available that critiqued this belief system. So I began to write up short essays presenting my case against various doctrines of the Oneness Pentecostals to use in these Bible studies. These essays eventually involved into the book Oneness Pentecostals and the Trinity.
I have received hundreds of testimonies from people who were empowered to leave the Oneness movement by this book, or who empowered others to leave the movement by giving them this book. This has been a tremendous blessing to me. I pray the book continues to help people caught up in this legalistic system.
As a final note, I should mention that since the writing of this book, there has been a major split among Oneness Pentecostals. Many now reject the notion that only Oneness Pentecostals are saved. Many also reject the necessity of “Jesus’ name” baptism, the idea that one must speak in tongues to be saved as well as the legalism of traditional Oneness Pentecostalism. While my critique of the Oneness view of God would still apply to these groups, the other aspects of my book would not.
The Monarchians properly so-called (Modalists) exaggerated the oneness of the Father and the Son so as to make them but one Person; thus the distinctions in the Holy Trinity are energies or modes, not Persons: God the Father appears on earth as Son; hence it seemed to their opponents that Monarchians made the Father suffer and die. In the West they were called Patripassians, whereas in the East they are usually called Sabellians. The first to visit Rome was probably Praxeas, who went on to Carthage some time before 206-208; but he was apparently not in reality a heresiarch
Sabellius soon became the leader of the Monarchians in Rome, perhaps even before the death of Zephyrinus (c. 218). He is said by Epiphanius to have founded his views on the Gospel according to the Egyptians, and the fragments of that apocryphon support this statement. Hippolytus hoped to convert Sabellius to his own views, and attributed his failure in this to the influence of Callistus. That pope, however, excommunicated Sabellius c. 220
I was pulled into the charismatic movement in my first year in college, not really knowing there was such a thing. It was the more “dignified” brand espoused by Calvary Chapel, i.e. Chuck Smith, and was very popular among college students in my Christian college. The East Texas group of ministries was very popular and influential at the time in my school (Keith Green, Dallas Holm, 2nd Chapter of Acts, Leonard Ravenhill, David Wilkerson, etc.)
I later saw the excesses that that movement was prone to (prophetic vision and authority, strange signs and wonders, forced “tongues,” etc.) but don’t complete exclaim the core theology that they taught. I’m not a cessationist, but I believe the supernatural gifts are extremely rare in this day, and are definitely not showcased and monetized. They are self-announcing and do not need to be pointed out from a soapbox.
” don’t complete exclaim the core theology that they taught. I’m not a cessationist,”
I don’t understand what you are trying to type here. Please could you explain?
Not a cessationist, meaning that I think ALL of the gifts described throughout New Testament cannon are still extant today, although limited. I can find no scriptural basis for "some" of the gifts to end at some point during the Church Age.
you are nothing but another stuff necked scribe of the Sadducee's flavor
always learning but never coming to salvation.
a carnal unregenerate mind
much learning didnt make Paul crazy, but it seems it did you.
i should pray you will be released from your spiritual blindness
Not a cessationist, meaning that I think ALL of the gifts described throughout New Testament cannon are still extant today, although limited. I can find no scriptural basis for “some” of the gifts to end at some point during the Church Age.
= = =
Clearly stated.
I expect miracle gifts to become more prevalent as the end times continue.
For example, healing, as doctors get woke, hospitals are less available, and medications vanish.
And along with miracles, will be false miracles. So there will have to be careful discernment by The Holy Spirit.
And that is why I think cessation is attractive. Pastors don’t have to discern real versus false, they just have ‘rules’.
Which is not how the Holy Spirit works. He must be discerned. That makes some leaders uncomfortable - it is hard to ‘control’ the flock when they hear ‘The Spirit’.
I agree. And when we least expect it, and from the lowliest of servants.
The Sadducees were not scribes - The Sadducees wanted to protect traditional Jewish values and customs. The Elders were community leaders and judges who applied the Law. The Chief Priests were members of the Priestly families. The Scribes were the lawyers who interpreted Jewish Law.
That's one of the many false teachings in the Calvary Chapel - you should leave that club and follow Jesus not Chuck
Ah - I’ve not heard the term “cessationist” - but the gifts described in the New Testament aren’t time limited
**I later saw the excesses that that movement was prone to (prophetic vision and authority, strange signs and wonders, forced “tongues,” etc.)**
The megachurches, such as Copeland’s, Swaggart’s, Meyer’s, Osteen’s, and many others, are mostly trinitarians.
And yes, I have seen and heard ‘tongues’ that were obviously not tongues from God. And the false prophet epidemic can be found in many MANY trinitarian churches.
The ‘slain in the Spirit’ practice is largely unscriptural. People have been psychologically conditioned to accept such behavior as being from God, imho.
Orthodox protestant trinitarians like to declare sola scriptura, yet spout unscriptural phrases, such as: ‘God the Son’, and ‘God the Holy Spirit’. They declare the Son to have no beginning, when he himself testified in Rev. 3:14 that he is “the beginning of the creation of God”.
and from the lowliest of servants.
= = =
Yes, from SERVANTS.
Save the preaching for your own cult.
God has revealed Himself as “Us” from the beginning. (Gen. 1:26)
Try telling that to the baptists and other Evangelicals. They think the current gifts are limited to "helps." That can be faked by anyone, Christian or not. And Spiritual gifts cannot be credibly faked.
on what basis do they say it is limited.
I’ve attended some of these “talking in tongues” and color me sceptic, but these weren’t talking in different languages but gibberish to me.
“They declare the Son to have no beginning, when he himself testified in Rev. 3:14 that he is ‘the beginning of the creation of God’.”
The passage you are citing is referring to the fact Jesus is the Creator as the Source or Originator of all things created, not that He Himself was Created. Did the Creator create Himself or is He eternal? The Bible says eternal.
Christ Himself had no beginning, but He is the beginning of all created things.
John 1:1 NLT
In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Hebrews 7:3 NKJV
Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually.
Study the story of Joseph and Pharaoh. You will see the Godhead in a marvelous type and shadow.
**Save the preaching for your own cult.**
I may be mistaken, but your response reminds me of ‘the science is settled’ type of folk.
**(Gen. 1:26)**
Define ‘us’. If you are made in the image of God, how many are you?
Jesus Christ inherited his name (Heb. 1:4). Was he eternally nameless for a while?
Paul said that Jesus Christ in ‘the firstborn of every creature’. (Col. 1:15).
In the book of John, Jesus repeatedly stated that his words weren’t his but his Father’s.
When Jesus Christ said he received all things from his Father, even the power to give eternal life, was there a time that Jesus Christ had nothing?
In John 14:10 and 24, Jesus declared the Father is the source of the Words.
Jesus Christ said multiple times that I am in the Father, and the Father in me.” Want a type and shadow?.... look at the Ark of the covenant: it was made of wood, yet coated inside and out with gold. Inside the inner gold layer was a space for the words of God (the testimony’, and there was the gift of eternal life (Aaron’s rod that budded), and also the bowl of manna (the bread of life).
As the Father was in Christ when he was on earth, and even when he ascended to heaven, God the Father will be in Christ went Christ returns.
When Joseph was given the power and authority of Pharaoh, (only second to Pharaoh in the throne), wherever Joseph went that power and authority was with him.
“In the book of John, Jesus repeatedly stated that his words weren’t his but his Father’s.”
One of many figures of speech He used. Jesus certainly SAID those words. He certainly thought the thoughts that preceded those words. So, in what sense are they not His words? It is a way of emphasizing that by His complete submission to the Father EVERYTHING He did and said was a perfect expression of the Father’s will. EVERYTHING was PRECISELY what the Father wanted.
“When Jesus Christ said he received all things from his Father, even the power to give eternal life, was there a time that Jesus Christ had nothing?”
All things He had being from the Father does not presuppose any time in which He lacked the things the Father gave Him. The Father is, always was, and always will be the Source of all that Christ possesses. Christ, the Eternal Son, always has been in submission to the Father’s authority and will.
Christ did become the uniquely begotten Son of God in the sense that He became a man. Yet, He was ALWAYS the Eternal Son. He is not the Son of God merely by the virtue of the virgin conception and birth. When did Jesus become a man? It was a process that includes the conception, birth, and His growing in “wisdom and stature”, and yet “before Abraham was, I AM,” He said.
Micah 5:2 NKJV
But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Though you are little among the thousands of Judah,
Yet out of you shall come forth to Me
The One to be Ruler in Israel,
Whose goings forth are from of old,
From everlasting.
Jesus is not the creation but the Creator. So, according to Psalm 90:2, from everlasting to everlasting Jesus is God. And this is consistent with how Micah describes Him.
Christ is the Wisdom of God and the Word of God. He proceeded forth from God, His Father. The Father always possessed Wisdom. He didn’t create Wisdom. It was always an attribute He eternally possessed. By Wisdom, He created all things that were created. He spoke, and the Word proceeded forth. By His Wisdom and Word, which are personified in the person of Christ, God made the Heavens and the Earth, and everything in them.
Jesus is the Person of the Godhead manifest to mankind because He is the Person who can be manifest, as having become a man Himself. No man can see God (that is, the Father) and live. No man can see the Spirit because a spirit, as a spirit, is not visible. However, a spirit or The Spirit can be manifest in the form of something else. For example, the Holy Spirit appeared in the form of a dove and also as forked tongues of fire. When angels, which are spirits, appeared to people in the scriptures, they appeared as men.
“As the Father was in Christ when he was on earth, and even when he ascended to heaven, God the Father will be in Christ went Christ returns.”
Yes, but Christ is also in the Father. And both indwell those who receive the Spirit, because it is by the Spirit that Christ and the Father make their dwelling in us. This is why the One True God is titled Elohim in the Hebrew, being a plural form. It is God and not gods, but the One True God is comprised of three persons.
By becoming a man, Christ veiled His deity. He became a little lower than the angels, though He is and was high above the angels, as their Creator. As a man, He further humbled Himself to be a servant of men (i.e. humans, not males or adults only). Yet, Christ unlike godly men and holy angels, received worship without objection. When people would bow or make offerings to godly men or holy angels, they always protested and refused to accept such worship. Yet Christ receives our worship. If He were not God, this would be a great crime and abomination. But because He is God Himself, it is not only right and proper for Him to receive worship, it is the privilege and duty of ALL to bow to Him, which the Father has ordained to happen in the future.
When Christ rebuked the Devil who sought for Christ to worship him, Jesus quoted the passage where it is written, “You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only shall you serve.” Jesus never bowed to Satan. But Satan knew quite well that Jesus could have rightfully (and in fact could have actually) pointed to Satan when He said “you” and to Himself when He said “Lord your God”.
1 John 5:20-21 NKJV
And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life. Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
When Isaiah saw the Lord (YHWH) in His glory, He did not see the Father. He saw the pre-incarnate Christ.
Isaiah 6:1, 9, & 10 NKJV
In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord [YHWH] sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple...
And He said, “Go, and tell this people:
‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand;
Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’
“Make the heart of this people dull,
And their ears heavy,
And shut their eyes;
Lest they see with their eyes,
And hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart,
And return and be healed.”
“Lord, who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”
Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:
“He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”
These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.
Those who refuse to accept the reality of who Jesus is cannot be saved:
Acts 4:12 NKJV
Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.
Calling on the name of the Lord (YHWH) in truth requires a supernatural revelation by God, opening the spiritually blind eyes of those who hear the Gospel. The hearers must hear the true message, understand it, and believe, as evidenced by their calling on the name of the Lord (YHWH) Jesus. Though a person could say the words, “Jesus is Lord” and not believe, they cannot truly call on His name as Lord apart from the miraculous work of God. Apart from this ALL remain in spiritual blindness. This way of salvation was foretold by the prophets:
Joel 2:32 NKJV
And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Shall be saved.
For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance,
As the Lord has said,
Among the remnant whom the Lord calls.
1 Corinthians 12:3b NKJV
No one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.
Paul says Jesus is the name of the Lord we must call upon:
Romans 10:9-13 NKJV
If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD [YHWH] shall be saved.”
Ask God to reveal to you who Jesus truly is. Ask Him to make your spiritually blind eyes see. Your church elders cannot heal your blindness. Only God can, as the scripture says.
I’d agree that nearly ALL charismatics today who “speak in tongues” are not exercising a spiritual gift. The more it sounds like gibberish, the more “otherworldly” they think they sound.
The disciples at Pentecost spoke established ethnic languages, without learning them, that others around them could understand.
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