Posted on 01/08/2024 6:01:53 PM PST by Roman_War_Criminal
Arguing about the end times is futile. The Bible does not unambiguously support any of the popular views. So it’s not important. A good church sticks to the important stuff.
We will find that what happens (and what is happening now) will exactly follow scripture, but not in any way that man has anticipated. God is as far above us in thought as we are above an amoeba - we cannot predict His plans like guessing who dunnit in a mystery novel.
Israel had plenty of clues as to the coming of the Messiah, and yet He came in a way and in a time that nobody anticipated - even John the Baptist and the disciples were confused and not sure that Jesus was the one (until after His resurrection).
Our preacher said it simply about the various ideas concerning the End Times.
“In the end, Christ still wins.”
***There are no examples in the book of Acts where anyone was saved without baptism.****
Cornelious. He received the Holy Spirit before being baptized, something that early on only came AFTER baptism. He was later baptized.
And If baptism is so important why was not St Paul given the specific instructions to do it?
1 Corinthians
11For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
Baptism brought division to the Corinthian church....
14I THANK GOD THAT I BAPTIZED NONE OF YOU, but Crispus and Gaius;
15Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. 16And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
17FOR CHRIST SENT ME NOT TO BAPTIZE , but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
This is why Paul could say to the Jailer...
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
while baptism was a command it could not be used as a “Work” to claim salvation.
Romans 4
1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
IF you demand ANYTHING other than the Finished Work of Christ on the Cross for salvation, then that “anything” will soon take preeminence over the Finished Work on the Cross.
That is why so many churches demand Believe on the Lord Christ, BUT YOU MUST ALSO DO THIS, AND THIS, AND THIS.....making the shed blood to non effect.
Why the order to be baptized? Because it is essential unto salvation. And where in Acts does it state Cornelius was saved simply because he spoke in tongues of the Spirit?
Your points made from 1 Corithians indicate the importance of being baptized. Paul was not downplaying the need to be baptized. He was downplaying his role in saving them. By baptizing them.
You are correct that Paul told the Jailer to believe on the Lord. What else did he tell him? He must have told him and his household to be baptized. For that is what they did.
Romans 4 has no specific steps to any of the steps of salvation.
BUT YOU MUST ALSO DO THIS, AND THIS, AND THIS.....making the shed blood to non effect. Beleiving on the name of the Lord, or repentance, confessing, or praying the believers prayer or making an altar call, etc. are just as much a work as is baptism.
If salvation was REQUIRED to be saved, then why was Jesus baptized? He had no need of salvation, as He was bringing it to all of us.
Why is the example of the thief on the cross "irrelevant"?
Jesus was baptized as an example for us to follow. We are baptized in the death, burial and resurrection of our Lord, raised to walk in newness of life.
There is a huge difference between his baptism and ours and as you know the thief on the cross died under the old law. How could he be baptized into Christ when Christ had not even yet died. That is why the thief on the cross is irrelevant.
Yes. I agree with all of that. Baptism is performed as an example for others. It is merely a symbol of our new life in Christ--it is not the conveyor of that life.
Don't get me wrong--I believe that baptism is very important, and that ALL Christians need to be baptized. I just don't see in Scripture where it is required before one is truly saved.
the thief on the cross died under the old law.
If he died under the old law, and had no chance to make sacrifice or otherwise atone for his sins, how could Christ have told him that he would be with Christ that day in paradise?
Sorry--I do not believe that the thief died under the old law. Christ Himself imparted His grace to the thief.
The thief was saved on the same basis as the heroes of old mentioned in Hebrews 11. They all were saved by their faith in what was to come. He, like them, was saved BEFORE Christ died. He could not have been baptized in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.
None of these heroes were saved until AFTER Jesus died on the cross.
I hadn't thought about it from that angle before.
Interesting.
I have more scriptures to share with you about the thief on the cross. But I’m late for a dentist appointment so I’ll revisit with you later today. God bless.
“Jesus and your bible are all you need.”
“Hebrews 10:25 - Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.”
“There are no examples in the book of Acts where anyone was saved without baptism.”
And there are no examples in the NT where anyone was baptized without being saved first.
It’s not in Acts, but I’m pretty sure the thief on the cross wasn’t baptized.
It was the first indulgence!
***Because it is essential unto salvation.***
If it is essential then Christ’s death was for nothing. To him that works not, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his FAITH is counted for righteousness.
It’s not in Acts, but I’m pretty sure the thief on the cross wasn’t baptized.
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Of course, he wasn’t baptized. Baptism is an act of dying, being buried and then raised to life just like Christ was. It was impossible for the thief on the cross to be baptized into Christ since Christ had not yet died. Of course the thief on the cross wasn’t baptized. Neither was Abraham Isaac, Jacob, Moses, or any of the other heroes of Faith, to whom righteousness was credited. Romans 4:22
See more here……
https://executableoutlines.com/topical_series/baptism/ba_05.html
If Faith without works is dead, and if Faith is a greater work than baptism, then why do you stress faith alone is all that is necessary to salvation?
Is praying the believers prayer not a work? Is confessing Christ is Lord not a work? Is making an altar call not a work? of course they are. So why do you emphasize these works, works of faith, and downplay the basic fundamental necessity of baptism?
More here…..
https://executableoutlines.com/topical_series/baptism/ba_05.html
Here is the important relevant information I was talking about earlier.
https://executableoutlines.com/topical_series/baptism/ba_05.html
Well if you are going to go that route then you better look at other things various churches REQUIRE for you to be saved.
Immersion baptism for remission of sin or by sprinkling or pouring. Others REQUIRE sprinkling or pouring.
Sabbath day worship depends on the various sabbatharian churches. Armstongism, Assembly of Yahweh and others.
Speak in tongues Gibberish even though we know the “tongues” mentioned are simply foreign languages. Some churches even teach their kids how to “fake it”.
Do signs and wonders healings and such. Pick up snakes, drink poison...
I came out of a church that demanded you EARN your way to salvation, even though St Paul clearly shows Salvation is a FREE GIFT OF GOD, not something that can be earned so no man can boast of having saved himself by his “good works”.
Any so-called “works” are the ones God will show you AFTER you are saved. Eph: 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath beforehand ordained, that we should walk in them.
It is not what YOU do for Christ that saves you.
It is what HE did for you on the Cross that saves you. Accept it!
Accept it!
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No can do. That according to you is also a work.
Well, just what work did St Paul do to be chosen by God to become an Apostle to the Gentiles? God spoke of Paul as being his chosen vessel and Paul had not even met Ananias or been baptized.
16 But rise and stand upon your feet, for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you as a servant and witness to the things in which you have seen me and to those in which I will appear to you, 17 delivering you from your people and from the Gentiles—to whom I am sending you.
SO, was Paul(Saul) saved when he believed or when he got baptized?
Ephesians 1: 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
4 even as he CHOSE US in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
5 he predestined us[b] for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
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