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To: Beowulf9
For three centuries after Christ died there was no Pope, no Vatican, and no ‘Bible’ and yet the first Christians were utterly devoted to God and worshipped him at the risk and cost of their lives.

There was a bible (scripture) available to the believers very early on.

The Old Testament was available before Christ was born.

Paul's letters were considered Scripture prior to 67 AD.

The books of the NT were all written prior to the end of the 1st century.

The NT as we know it was generally in place by then. We can see in the writings of the Early Church Fathers the references to these books.

But, you are correct in there was no pope, no vatican, no marian dogmas, no mass....in other words, we don't see the Roman Catholic church in the early church.

46 posted on 12/24/2023 9:29:18 AM PST by ealgeone
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To: ealgeone; Beowulf9
ealgeone: There was a bible (scripture) available to the believers very early on.

That is historically false

A Bible is a collection of books - 73 books.

There was no collection of Old Testament books together - these were multiple scrolls that were not bound together in one book until Jerome in the 300s

The Old Testament was not in one book but a series of scrolls - the Septuagint.

Jesus referred to the Septuagint - 46 separate books

Not all of Paul's letters were considered scripture prior to 67 AD

We see references in the Early Church fathers not only to these but to others like the Shepherd of Hermas etc.

The collection of these books happened under the Catholic/Orthodox/Oriental Orthodox Church - which had a Pope i.e. Bishop of Rome --> you even referred to the Church fathers, one of the earliest of whom was Clement of Rome - i.e. Pope Saint Clement of Rome - the third Pope after St. Peter = who was Pope from 8 AD to 99 AD

And Mass is there not only in the Didache but visible in the way the structure of the Mass is following the book of Revelation

61 posted on 02/19/2024 7:54:45 AM PST by Cronos (I identify as an ambulance, my pronounces are wee/woo)
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To: ealgeone

The book of Revelation is the structure of the Mass

1:10 Sunday worship
1:13 a High Priest
8:3-4; 11:1; 14:18 An Altar
4:4; 11:15; 14:3; 19:4 Priests (presbyteroi)
1:13; 4:4; 6:11;19:13 Vestments
4:8 The Holy, Holy, Holy
7:3; 14:1;22:4 The sign of the Cross
2:17 The Eucharistic Host
5:6 The Lamb of God
2-3;5;8:2-11 Readings from Scripture

You can also identify the Mass in the very structure of the book of Revelation:
First the seven letters calling for repentence (the Mass’s Penitential Rite, in which we repent of our sins)

Second a book with seven seals — the Liturgy of the Word, where the scriptures are opened and read

Finally the marriage supper of the Lamb - the Eucharist

The book of revelation shows us that the coming of the Lord is inseparable from the Liturgy. It is in Eucharistic celebration that the Lord truly comes to the church.


63 posted on 02/19/2024 8:01:22 AM PST by Cronos (I identify as an ambulance, my pronounces are wee/woo)
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