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Bible Only is dumb
Eponymous Flower ^ | September 9, 2023 | Stop Voris

Posted on 09/11/2023 9:23:22 AM PDT by ebb tide

Bible Only is dumb

ANSWERS TO 25 QUESTIONS ON THE
HISTORY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT
WHICH COMPLETELY REFUTE THE "BIBLE ONLY" THEORY

ONE
Did Our Lord write any part of the New Testament or command His Apostles to do so? Our Lord Himself never wrote a line, nor is there any record that He ordered his Apostles to write; He did command them to teach and to preach. Also He to Whom all power was given in Heaven and on earth (Matt. 28-18) promised to give them the Holy Spirit (John 14-26) and to be with them Himself till the end of the world (Mat. 28-20).
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COMMENT: If reading the Bible were a necessary means of salvation, Our Lord would have made that statement and also provided the necessary means for his followers.
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TWO
How many of the Apostles or others actually wrote what is now in the New Testament? A Few of the Apostles wrote part of Our Lord's teachings, as they themselves expressly stated; i.e., Peter, Paul, James, John, Jude, Matthew, also Sts. Mark and Luke. None of the others wrote anything, so far as is recorded.
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COMMENT: If the Bible privately interpreted was to be a Divine rule of Faith, the apostles would have been derelict in their duty when instead, some of them adopted preaching only.
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THREE
Was it a teaching or a Bible-reading Church that Christ founded? The Protestant Bible expressly states that Christ founded a teaching Church, which existed before any of the New Testament books were written.
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Rom. 10-17: So then faith cometh by HEARING, and hearing by the word of God.
Matt. 28-19: Go ye therefore and TEACH all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
Mark. 16-20: And they went forth, and PREACHED everywhere the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
Mark 16-15: And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world and PREACH the gospel to every creature.
COMMENT: Thus falls the entire basis of the "Bible-only" theory.
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FOUR
Was there any drastic difference between what Our Lord commanded the Apostles to teach and what the New Testament contains? Our Lord commanded his Apostles to teach all things whatsoever He had commanded; (Matt. 28-20); His Church must necessarily teach everything; (John 14-26); however, the Protestant Bible itself teaches that the Bible does not contain all of Our Lord's doctrines:
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John 20-30: And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book, etc.
John 21-25: And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
COMMENT: How would it have been possible for second century Christians to practice Our Lord's religion, if private interpretation of an unavailable and only partial account of Christ's teaching were indispensable?
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FIVE
Does the New Testament expressly refer to Christ's "unwritten word"? The New Testament itself teaches that it does not contain all that Our Lord did or, consequently, all that He taught.
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John 20-30: And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book, etc.
John 21-25: And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written everyone, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written Amen.
COMMENT: Since the Bible is incomplete, it needs something else to supplement it; i.e., the spoken or historically recorded word which we call Tradition.
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SIX
What became of the unwritten truths which Our Lord and the Apostles taught? The Church has carefully conserved this "word of mouth" teaching by historical records called Tradition. Even the Protestant Bible teaches that many Christian truths were to be handed down by word of mouth.
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2 Thes. 2-15: Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
2 Tim. 2-2: And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
COMMENT: Hence not only Scripture but other sources of information must be consulted to get the whole of Christ's teaching. Religions founded on "the Bible only" are therefore necessarily incomplete.
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SEVEN
Between what years were the first and last books of the New Testament written? This first book, St. Matthew's Gospel, was not written until about ten years after Our Lord's Ascension. St. John's fourth gospel and Apocalypse or Book of Revelations were not written until about 100 A. D.
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COMMENT: Imagine how the present-day privately interpreted "Bible-only" theory would have appeared at a time when the books of the New Testament were not only unavailable, but most of them had not yet been written.
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EIGHT
When was the New Testament placed under one cover? In 397 A. D. by the Council of Carthage, from which it follows that non-Catholics have derived their New Testament from the Catholic Church; no other source was available.
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COMMENT: Up to 397 A. D., some of the Christians had access to part of the New Testament; into this situation, how would the "Bible-only privately interpreted" theory have fitted?
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NINE
Why so much delay in compiling the New Testament? Prior to 397 A. D., the various books of the New Testament were not under one cover, but were in the custody of different groups or congregations. The persecutions against the Church, which had gained new intensity, prevented these New Testament books from being properly authenticated and placed under one cover. However, this important work was begun after Constantine gave peace to Christianity in 313 A.D., allowing it to be practiced in the Roman Empire.
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COMMENT: This again shows how utterly impossible was the "Bible-only" theory, at least up to 400 A. D.
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TEN
What other problem confronted those who wished to determine the contents of the New Testament? Before the inspired books were recognized as such, many other books had been written and by many were thought to be inspired; hence the Catholic Church made a thorough examination of the whole question; biblical scholars spent years in the Holy Land studying the original languages of New Testament writings.
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COMMENT: According to the present-day "Bible-only" theory, in the above circumstances, it would also have been necessary for early Christians to read all the doubtful books and, by interior illumination, judge which were and which were not divinely inspired.
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ELEVEN
Who finally did decide which books were inspired and therefore belonged to the New Testament? Shortly before 400 A. D. a General Council of the Catholic Church, using the infallible authority which Christ had given to His own divine institution, finally decided which books really belonged to the New Testament and which did not.
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Either the Church at this General Council was infallible, or it was not.
If the Church was infallible then, why is it not infallible now? If the Church was not infallible then, in that case the New Testament is not worth the paper it is written on, because internal evidences of authenticity and inspiration are inconclusive and because the work of this Council cannot now be rechecked; this is obvious from reply to next question.
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COMMENT: In view of these historical facts, it is difficult to see how non-Catholics can deny that it was from the (Roman) Catholic Church that they received the New Testament.
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TWELVE
Why is it impossible for modern non-Catholics to check over the work done by the Church previous to 400. A. D.? The original writings were on frail material called papyrus, which had but temporary enduring qualities. While the books judged to be inspired by the Catholic Church were carefully copied by her monks, those rejected at that time were allowed to disintegrate, for lack of further interest in them.
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COMMENT. What then is left for non-Catholics, except to trust the Catholic Church to have acted under divine inspiration; if at that time, why not now?
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THIRTEEN
Would the theory of private interpretation of the New Testament have been possible for the year 400 A. D.? No, because, as already stated, no New Testament as such was in existence.
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COMMENT: If our non-Catholic brethren today had no Bibles, how could they even imagine following the "Bible-only privately interpreted" theory; but before 400 A. D., New Testaments were altogether unavailable.
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FOURTEEN
Would the private interpretation theory have been possible between 400 A. D. and 1440 A. D., when printing was invented? No, the cost of individual Bibles written by hand was prohibitive; moreover, due to the scarcity of books, and other reasons, the ability to read was limited to a small minority. The Church used art, drama and other means to convey Biblical messages.
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COMMENT: To have proposed the "Bible-only" theory during the above period would obviously have been impracticable and irrational.
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FIFTEEN
Who copied and conserved the Bible during the interval between 400 A. D. and 1440 A. D.? The Catholic monks; in many cases these spent their entire lives to give the world personally-penned copies of the Scriptures, before printing was invented.
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COMMENT: In spite of this, the Catholic Church is accused of having tried to destroy the Bible; had she desired to do this, she had 1500 years within which to do so.
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SIXTEEN
Who gave the Reformers the authority to change over from the one Faith, one Fold and one Shepherd program, to that of the "Bible-only theory"? St. Paul seems to answer the above when he said: "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." (Galations 1-8 - Protestant version ).
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COMMENT: If in 300 years, one-third of Christianity was split into at least 300 sects, how many sects would three-thirds of Christianity have produced in 1900 years? (Answer is 5700).
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SEVENTEEN
Since Luther, what consequences have followed from the use of the "Bible-only" theory and its personal interpretation? Just what St. Paul foretold when he said: "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears." 2 Timothy 4-3 (Protestant edition). According to the World Christian Encyclopedia and other sources, there are 73 different organizations of Methodists, 55 kinds of Baptists, 10 branches of Presbyterians, 17 organizations of Mennonites, 128 of Lutherans and thousands of other denominations.
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COMMENT: The "Bible-only" theory may indeed cater to the self-exaltation of the individual, but it certainly does not conduce to the acquisition of Divine truth.
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EIGHTEEN
In Christ's system, what important part has the Bible? The Bible is one precious source of religious truth; other sources are historical records (Tradition) and the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit.
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COMMENT: Elimination of any one of the three elements in the equation of Christ's true Church would be fatal to its claims to be such.
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NINETEEN
Now that the New Testament is complete and available, what insolvable problem remains? The impossibility of the Bible to explain itself and the consequent multiplicity of errors which individuals make by their theory of private interpretation. Hence it is indisputable that the Bible must have an authorized interpreter.
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2 Peter 1-20: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2 Peter 3-16: As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Acts 8-30: And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Isaias, and said, understandest thou what thou readest? 31. And he said, How can I except some men should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
COMMENT: Only by going on the supposition that falsehood is as acceptable to God as is truth, can the "Bible-only" theory be defended.
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TWENTY
Who is the official expounder of the Scriptures? The Holy Spirit, acting through and within the Church which Christ founded nineteen centuries ago; the Bible teaches through whom in the Church come the official interpretations of; God's law and God's word.
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Luke 10-16: He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
Matt. 16-18: And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mal. 2-7: For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the Lord of hosts.
COMMENT: Formerly at least, it was commonly held that when individuals read their Bibles carefully and prayerfully, the Holy Spirit would guide each individual to a knowledge of the truth. This is much more than the Catholic Church claims for even the Pope himself. Only after extended consultation and study, with much fervent prayer, does he rarely and solemnly make such a decision.
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TWENTY-ONE
What are the effects of the Catholic use of the Bible? Regardless of what persons may think about the Catholic Church, they must admit that her system gets results in the way of unity of rule and unity of faith; otherwise stated, one Faith, one Fold and one Shepherd.
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COMMENT: If many millions of non-Catholics in all nations, by reading their Bible carefully and prayerfully, had exactly the same faith, reached the same conclusions, then this theory might deserve the serious consideration of intelligent, well-disposed persons-but not otherwise.
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TWENTY-TWO
Why are there so many non-Catholic Churches? Because there is so much different interpretation of the Bible; there is so much different interpretation of the Bible because there is so much wrong interpretation; there is so much wrong interpretation because the system of interpreting is radically wrong. You cannot have one Fold and one Shepherd, one Faith and one Baptism, by allowing every man and every woman to distort and pervert the Scriptures to suit his or her own pet theories.
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COMMENT: To say that Bible reading is an intensely Christian practice, is to enunciate a beautiful truth; to say that Bible reading is the sole source of religious faith, is to make a sadly erroneous statement.
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TWENTY-THREE
Without Divine aid, could the Catholic Church have maintained her one Faith, one Fold, and one Shepherd? Not any more than the non-Catholic sects have done; they are a proof of what happens when, without Divine aid, groups strive to do the humanly impossible.
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COMMENT: Catholics love, venerate, use the Bible; but they also know that the Bible alone is not Christ's system but only a precious book, a means, an aid by which the Church carries on her mission to "preach the Gospel to every living creature" and to keep on preaching it "to the end of time."
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TWENTY-FOUR
Were there any printed Bibles before Luther? When printing was invented about 1440, one of the first, if not the earliest printed book, was an edition of the Catholic Bible printed by John Gutenberg. It is reliably maintained that 626 editions of the Catholic Bible, or portions thereof, had come from the press through the agency of the Church, in countries where her influence prevailed, before Luther's German version appeared in 1534. Of these, many were in various European languages. Hence Luther's "discovery" of the supposedly unknown Bible at Erfurt in 1503 is one of those strange, wild calumnies with which anti-Catholic literature abounds.
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COMMENT: Today parts of the Bible are read in the vernacular from every Catholic altar every Sunday. The Church grants a spiritual premium or indulgence to those who read the Bible; every Catholic family has, or is supposed to have, a Bible in the home. Millions of Catholic Bibles are sold annually.
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TWENTY-FIVE
During the Middle Ages, did the Catholic Church manifest hostility to the Bible as her adversaries claim? Under stress of special circumstances, various regulations were made by the Church to protect the people from being spiritually poisoned by the corrupted and distorted translations of the Bible; hence opposition to the Waldensians, Albigensians, Wycliff and Tyndale.
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COMMENT: Individual churchmen may at times have gone too far in their zeal, not to belittle the Bible, but to protect it. There is no human agency in which authority is always exercised blamelessly.
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ORIGIN OF CHRIST'S CHURCH
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The Bible teaches that the true Church began with Christ over 1900 years ago, not with men or women 15 to 19 centuries later. It was founded when Our Lord spoke the following and other similar words:
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Matt. 28, 18-20: And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye, therefore. and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
COMMENT: History proves that the First Protestant Church was the Lutheran, founded in 1517 by the ex-priest Martin Luther; all other of the some 33,800 sects have been created since then.
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AUTHORITY OF CHRIST'S CHURCH
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The Bible teaches that the rulers of Christ's Church have authority which must be obeyed in matters of religion.
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Heb. 13, 17: Obey them that have the rule over you and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
Matt 18-17: And if he shall neglect to hear them tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
Luke 10-16: He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
Matt. 16-19: And I will give unto thee (Peter) the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou (Peter) shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou (Peter) shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
COMMENT: The apostles repeatedly claimed this authority: Gal. 1-8; John 1-10; Acts 15, 23 and 28. Hence the laws or precepts of the true Church are founded upon the same authority as the commandments of God. For the Church of Christ has authority to act in his Name.



TOPICS: Catholic; General Discusssion; Theology
KEYWORDS: bibleonly; faithandphilosophy; nolascriptura; popeonlyisdumb; popesrevelations; privaterevelations; romancatholic; splintersectinrome
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To: patriot torch
And when he or she, devoid of Salvation, stands before the White Throne Judgement, he or she will not be able to say he or she was not told.

Some folks were VERY concerned about...

 

John 6:25-40

25 When they found him on the other side of the lake, they asked him, “Rabbi, when did you get here?”

26 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”

 

28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”   (direct question)

29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”   (direct answer)

 

30 So they asked him, “What sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 31 Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’[c]

32 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

34 “Sir,” they said, “always give us this bread.”

35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”


 


261 posted on 09/12/2023 5:36:27 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: ebb tide

And Eve lied to...?


262 posted on 09/12/2023 5:37:48 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: patriot torch

RSVP indeed!!

 Revelation 22:17  
 

New International Version
The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty Come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.
 
 
 
Douay-Rheims Bible
And the spirit and the bride say: Come. And he that heareth, let him say: Come. And he that thirsteth, let him Come: and he that will, let him take the water of life, freely.

263 posted on 09/12/2023 5:42:12 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: patriot torch

RSVP indeed!!

 Revelation 22:17  
 

New International Version
The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty Come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.
 
 
 
Douay-Rheims Bible
And the spirit and the bride say: Come. And he that heareth, let him say: Come. And he that thirsteth, let him Come: and he that will, let him take the water of life, freely.

264 posted on 09/12/2023 5:45:49 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

(Third times a charm)


265 posted on 09/12/2023 5:47:06 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Chicory

The Gospel of Jesus Christ teaches that Faith without works
is dead.

Thus there remain those who examine the Bible sincerely and
come to different conclusions.

The book of James teaches correct principles regarding faith
and works.


266 posted on 09/12/2023 6:31:46 AM PDT by wita (Under oath since 1966 in defense of Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness)
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To: ebb tide

“Johnny”?
“Panties”?

Are you a “priest”?


267 posted on 09/12/2023 6:40:40 AM PDT by Ken Regis (I concur. )
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To: Elsie

Thank you Elsie for sharing the True Bread of Life!


268 posted on 09/12/2023 6:47:27 AM PDT by patriot torch (..)
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To: Elsie

Neat. You know, I’ve heard people claim that following the Bible is not as important as a spiritual leader, or something to that effect. But I don’t buy it since I think a spiritual leader needs accountability, and that comes from the Bible.


269 posted on 09/12/2023 6:49:13 AM PDT by Telepathic Intruder
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To: BDParrish

>> You see, you have quoted James 2 to mean that you really do have to do the works after all. <<

You do not have to do the works, you have to tend to your faith as you would a plant, so that it stays alive and doesn’t die.

If all you did was do the works, but you have no love (sound familiar?), that will not get you into Heaven.

If you once said the prayer asking Jesus into your heart but continued to fornicate and rip off widows and orphans, well, maybe you can explain how that person would get into Heaven?


270 posted on 09/12/2023 8:02:54 AM PDT by Chicory
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To: Elsie

Excellent compilation of verses. So obvious is the Truth that even a roman catholic should be able to interpret. It’s impossible that through the Law we find our Salvation, but through the shed Blood of our Lord and Saviour comes Life everlasting.

When the Author of Hebrews, who I believe to be Paul, addressed the Judaizers, he exhibited the Old Testament Patriarchs. Hebrews chapter 11 ( Known as the Hall of Faith chapter) Paul listed those that have successfully found that path to Salvation. Was it Law that granted them Life everlasting? Nay. It was Grace. Through Faith believing in Him that was sent to wash away our sins.

OLD TESTAMENT PATRIARCHS


Hebrews 11:4
King James Version
4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Hebrews 11:5
King James Version
5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Hebrews 11:7
King James Version
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Hebrews 11:8
King James Version
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Hebrews 11:11
King James Version
11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

Hebrews 11:21
King James Version
21 By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.

Hebrews 11:22
King James Version
22 By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.

Hebrews 11:23
King James Version
23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king’s commandment.

Hebrews 11:31
King James Version
31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

Hebrews 11:13
King James Version
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.


271 posted on 09/12/2023 8:14:05 AM PDT by patriot torch (..)
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To: Elsie

Revelation 2:20
King James Version

20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.


272 posted on 09/12/2023 8:27:50 AM PDT by patriot torch (..)
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To: Arkansas Toothpick; ebb tide
At the end of the day, I fear the Roman church has painted itself into a corner. It lives and dies by the pope, and as soon as a pope declares infallibly that gay marriage is ordained by God, then Ebb Tide and others have no defense against heresy

As liberal as Francis is, I doubt very much that he would go that far, or even declare anything infallibly, except perhaps that combating Climate Change was a solemn responsibility. But as related to this, and as regards doctrine and which relates to this thread, Ebb Tide is way ahead of you in this, since he already has declared that while Pope Pius XI was a Catholic yet Francis (Bergoglio) is not a Catholic, but one who preaches and authors heresy, being a material and formal heretic, who is part of a schism, in a Church that has already shut itself up since VCII and no longer proclaims Christ the Sovereign King, to all nations, nor does it preach "extra Ecclesiam nulla salus." Thus ET, who will never give VCII a pass, and posted that the Ecumenical Mass of Bergoglio is straight out of Hell. But he defends the Catholic Church as being the Bride of Christ for it is not the papacy of Bergoglio. If I was still lost as a RC with her false gospel, then I would likely be a TradCath also. May God grant them “repentance to the acknowledging of the truth.” (2 Timothy 2:25)

273 posted on 09/12/2023 8:38:07 AM PDT by daniel1212 (As a damned+destitute sinner turn 2 the Lord Jesus who saves souls on His acct + b baptized 2 obey)
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To: ebb tide; patriot torch; Ken Regis; ZinGirl; steve86; Arkansas Toothpick; ConservativeMind; ...
Arguments in "Bible Only is dumb" are dumb (and ignorant):
Ignorant argument #ONE Did Our Lord write any part of the New Testament or command His Apostles to do so? Our Lord Himself never wrote a line, nor is there any record that He ordered his Apostles to write;

Yes. And since it is the Spirit of Christ that inspired the Scriptures, and the Spirit only speaks what the Lord Jesus wills, then indeed the Lord wrote all of the New Testament and commanded Apostles to do so

I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. (John 16:12-15)
I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. (Revelation 1:10-11)

Ignorant COMMENT #1: If reading the Bible were a necessary means of salvation, Our Lord would have made that statement and also provided the necessary means for his followers.

Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. (Luke 24:25-27)
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, (Luke 24:44-45)
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. (John 20:31)

Ignorant argument # TWO How many of the Apostles or others actually wrote what is now in the New Testament? A Few of the Apostles wrote part of Our Lord's teachings, as they themselves expressly stated; i.e., Peter, Paul, James, John, Jude, Matthew, also Sts. Mark and Luke. None of the others wrote anything, so far as is recorded

How many writings of the Apostles or others are necessary to establish consensus on doctrine and in judgments? Seeing as,

In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. (2 Corinthians 13:1)
He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: (Hebrews 10:28)
Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; (Luke 1:1-2)
But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. (Matthew 18:16)
And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision. (Galatians 2:9)
Ignorant COMMENT #2: If the Bible privately interpreted was to be a Divine rule of Faith, the apostles would have been derelict in their duty when instead, some of them adopted preaching only.

Rather, apostles would have been derelict in their duty if they did not rely upon the written word in preaching, which provided the epistemological prophetic and doctrinal foundation for the NT, and the Lord validated His ministry by (along with miracles) and opened the minds of the disciple to.

Meaning the apostles would have been derelict in their duty by not doing as the leaders Peter and Paul did, affirming the written word as being the more sure word of prophecy, (2 Peter 1:19) and which "reasoned out of the Scriptures" (Acts 17:2) as the Spirit of Christ affirmed those who tested their preaching by the Scriptures. (Acts 17:11) And contrary to sola ecclesia, in which the word of God consists of and means whatever Rome says, according to her interpretation, which is base upon the unscriptural premise that since men such as apostles could preach as wholly God-inspired, then her uninspired popes and councils also are to be believed like they were, if Sola Scriptura meant that that the Bible personally interpreted was to be a infallible Divine rule of Faith, unreprovable by "synods and councils" who are to ministerially "determine controversies of faith" (Westminster Confession XXXI) then the the RC comment/polemic might have some merit. The the magisterial office of church is essential to settle disputes, in subjection of Scripture, with its veracity being relative to its degree of Scriptural substantiation in word and in power, and not as superior to it. contrary to the Catholic premise of ensured perpetual magisterial veracity (and basically as in cults).

Ignorant argument # THREE Was it a teaching or a Bible-reading Church that Christ founded? The Protestant Bible expressly states that Christ founded a teaching Church, which existed before any of the New Testament books were written.

Amazing! Scripture must only consist of the New Testament books if this polemic against the primacy of Scripture is to have any validity! Instead, an authoritative body of wholly God-inspired writings had been manifestly established by the time of Christ as being "Scripture, ("in all the Scriptures") "even the tripartite canon of the Law, the Prophets and The Writings, by which the Lord Jesus established His messiahship and ministry and opened the minds of the disciples to, who did the same . (Luke 24:27.44,45; Acts 17:2; 18:28, etc.)

For the Hebrew Scriptures testify to Jesus being the promised scapegoat and perfect atonement, and the basis for the teachings of Christ and that of His church. And thus as said, Scripture provided the doctrinal and prophetic epistemological foundation for the NT church.

Which established its Truth claims upon Scriptural substantiation in word and in power, in dissent from the magisterial stewards of Scripture, with even the veracity of apostolic preaching being subject to examination by Scripture.

For God manifestly made writing His most-reliable means of authoritative preservation of His Word. (Exodus 17:14; 34:1,27; Deuteronomy 10:4; 17:18; 27:3,8; 31:24; Joshua 1:8; 2 Chronicles 34:15, 18-19, 30-31; Psalm 19:7-11; 119; Isaiah 30:8; Jeremiah 30:2; Matthew 4:5-7; 22:29; Luke 24:44, 45; John 5:46, 47; John 20:31; Acts 17:2, 11; 18:28; Revelation 1:1; 20:12, 15)

And thus as abundantly evidenced , as written, Scripture became the transcendent supreme standard for obedience and testing and establishing truth claims as the wholly Divinely inspired and assured, Word of God. Thus the veracity of even apostolic oral preaching could be subject to testing by Scripture, (Acts 17:11) and not vice versa.

Moreover, men such as the apostles could speak as wholly inspired of God and also provide new public revelation thereby (in conflation with what had been written), neither of popes and councils claim to do. Thus the written word is the assured infallible word of God.

And the establishment of an authoritative body of wholly God-inspired writings by the time of Christ also shows that both men and writings of God could be recognized without an infallible magisterium - contrary to the premise of Catholicism, and indeed The church actually began in dissent from those who sat in the seat of Moses over Israel, to whom conditional obedience was enjoined, (Mt. 23:2; cf. Dt. 17:8-13) which judgments included which men and writings were of God and which were not, (Mk. 11:27-33) as the historical magisterial head over Israel which was the historical instrument and steward of Scripture, "because that unto them were committed the oracles of God," (Rm. 3:2) to whom pertaineth" the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises" (Rm. 9:4) of Divine guidance, presence and perpetuation as they believed, (Gn. 12:2, 3; 17:4,7,8; Ex. 19:5; Lv. 10:11; Dt. 4:31; 17:8-13; Ps, 11:4,9; Is. 41:10, Ps. 89:33, 34; Jer. 7:23)

And instead they followed an itinerant Preacher whom the magisterium rejected, and whom the Messiah reproved them Scripture as being supreme, (Mk. 7:2-16) and established His Truth claims upon scriptural substantiation in word and in power, as did the early church as it began upon this basis. (Mt. 22:23-45; Lk. 24:27, 44; Jn. 5:36, 39; Acts 2:14-35; 4:33; 5:12; 15:6-21;17:2,11; 18:28; 28:23; Rm. 15:19; 2Cor. 12:12, etc.)

Ignorant argument # FOUR Was there any drastic difference between what Our Lord© commanded the Apostles to teach and what the New Testament contains? Our Lord commanded his Apostles to teach all things whatsoever He had commanded; (Matt. 28-20); His Church must necessarily teach everything; (John 14-26); however, the Protestant Bible itself teaches that the Bible does not contain all of Our Lord's doctrines: John 20-30: And many other signs truly did Jesus...John 21-25: And there are also many other things which Jesus did

No, the Protestant Bible itself does NOT teach that the Bible does not contain all of Our Lord's doctrines, and there is NO doctrinal difference between what Our Lord (which applies to only a very few RCs) commanded the Apostles to teach and what the New Testament contains. For while there is more information (John 20-30: And many other signs truly did Jesus...John 21-25: And there are also many other things which Jesus did) than even what the OT contains as well as NT - yet Christ opened the minds of the disciples to understanding Scripture, not oral tradition - and there is more that can be known of "many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book." Yet "these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. (John 20:30-31)

And as said, while men such as the apostles could speak as wholly inspired of God and also provide new public revelation thereby (in conflation with what had been written), neither popes and councils can claim to do so. Thus rather than oral tradition being the assured infallible word of God based upon the Catholic presumption that the word of God only consists of and means whatever she says (though the RCC and the EO have conflicts in this), it remains that God manifestly made writing His most-reliable means of authoritative preservation if His Word, and the written word is the assured infallible word of God.

Ignorant COMMENT: How would it have been possible for second century Christians to practice Our Lord's religion, if private interpretation of an unavailable and only partial account of Christ's teaching were indispensable?

Because contrary to RC ignorance, most of Scripture already was established as being so, and men such as the apostles could speak as wholly inspired of God and also provide new public revelation thereby (in conflation with what had been written), neither popes and councils can claim to do so, and contrary to RC distinctive teachings, by those who "received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so" (Acts 17:11) could see that they were!

Ignorant argument # FIVE Does the New Testament expressly refer to Christ's "unwritten word"? The New Testament itself teaches that it does not contain all that Our Lord did or, consequently, all that He taught.

Which is simply a repetition of the previous refuted polemic.

Ignorant COMMENT: Since the Bible is incomplete, it needs something else to supplement it; i.e., the spoken or historically recorded word which we call Tradition.

Since the OT was incomplete, it needs something else to supplement it; i.e., the wholly God-inspired spoken or then written recorded word which we call Scripture, versus the uninspired presumptions of Catholosicism. By which Rome has presumed to infallibly declare she is and will be perpetually infallible whenever she speaks in accordance with her infallibly defined (scope and subject-based) formula, which renders her declaration that she is infallible, to be infallible, as well as all else she accordingly declares, and presumes protection from at least salvific error in non-infallible magisterial teaching on faith and morals.

Ignorant argument # SIX What became of the unwritten truths which Our Lord and the Apostles taught? The Church has carefully conserved this "word of mouth" teaching by historical records called Tradition. Even the Protestant Bible teaches that many Christian truths were to be handed down by word of mouth. COMMENT: Hence not only Scripture but other sources of information must be consulted to get the whole of Christ's teaching. Religions founded on "the Bible only" are therefore necessarily incomplete. Ignorant COMMENT: Hence not only Scripture but other sources of information must be consulted to get the whole of Christ's teaching. Religions founded on "the Bible only" are therefore necessarily incomplete.

What unwritten truths of doctrine? (John 20-30: And many other signs truly did Jesus...John 21-25: And there are also many other things which Jesus did. The premise that there is a body of the unwritten wholly God-inspired doctrinal truths which the Lord and His prophets taught is the kind of presumption that is typical of cults. And which premise Orthodox Jews presume in rejecting the NT. Religions NOT founded on "the Bible only" (properly understood) are therefore necessarily incorrect.

Ignorant argument # SEVEN Between what years were the first and last books of the New Testament written? This first book, St. Matthew's Gospel, was not written until about ten years after Our Lord's Ascension. St. John's fourth gospel and Apocalypse or Book of Revelations were not written until about 100 A. D. Ignorant COMMENT: Imagine how the present-day privately interpreted "Bible-only" theory would have appeared at a time when the books of the New Testament were not only unavailable, but most of them had not yet been written.

Wrong. All books except Revelation were most likely written within one 70-year generation of the Lord's resurrection and all were penned before the death of the last apostle. And as said, while men such as the apostles could speak as wholly inspired of God and also provide new public revelation thereby (in conflation with what had been written), neither popes and councils can claim to do so, thus the premise that the preaching of the latter (which did not exist early on) was and is the assured word of God, is fallacious.

. Ignorant argument # EIGHT When was the New Testament placed under one cover? In 397 A. D. by the Council of Carthage, from which it follows that non-Catholics have derived their New Testament from the Catholic Church; no other source was available. Ignorant COMMENT: Up to 397 A. D., some of the Christians had access to part of the New Testament; into this situation, how would the "Bible-only privately interpreted" theory have fitted?

And just how much did Adam and Eve need to know for obedience to God? Likewise those prior to Moses, and those prior to other prophets, and the Lord Jesus? God always provided enough revelation for salvation and obedience to God. But He also can provide more grace. And which includes preachers of the Scriptures.

Only if Sola Scriptura actually taught that one must have his own copy of Scripture and be able to read it in order to be save and grown in grace would this polemic have some validity, versus SS teaching what Scripture is and provides (being the sole sure supreme sufficient body of Truth, in its formal and broader senses) , whereby what one "may" (see WC #6 here: not necessarily will or equally can without helps) be able to apprehend what is taught therein.

Thus SS preachers can preach salvation and disciple others who do not even know how to read, and even enjoin "stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle" (2 Thessalonians 2:15) under the premise that, as with the apostles, what was taught is Scriptural. In contrast, the premise of Rome for its veracity is her own claim to being so, as if, like men such as the apostles who could speak as wholly inspired of God, yet neither popes and councils can claim to do so.

Ignorant NINE Why so much delay in compiling the New Testament? Prior to 397 A. D., the various books of the New Testament were not under one cover, but were in the custody of different groups or congregations....COMMENT: This again shows how utterly impossible was the "Bible-only" theory, at least up to 400 A. D.

Same argument, same refutation.

Ignorant argument # TEN What other problem confronted those who wished to determine the contents of the New Testament? Before the inspired books were recognized as such, many other books had been written and by many were thought to be inspired; hence the Catholic Church made a thorough examination of the whole question; biblical scholars spent years in the Holy Land studying the original languages of New Testament writings. Ignorant COMMENT: According to the present-day "Bible-only" theory, in the above circumstances, it would also have been necessary for early Christians to read all the doubtful books and, by interior illumination, judge which were and which were not divinely inspired.

There was also a fluid canon to some degree among the Jews in the time of Christ, but it is best indicated that the Palestinian canon - which even Catholic sources affirm was the same as the Prot. OT canon - (and preceded an expanded LXX) was what Christ referred to as "all the Scriptures." (LK. 24:27) Likewise "all the Scriptures" existed to the end of the 1st century which, as with the Hebrew Scriptures, discerning souls perceived as being of God, as they also did in perceiving men of God as being so.

Thus the church actually began in dissent from those who sat in the seat of Moses over Israel, to whom conditional obedience was enjoined, (Mt. 23:2; cf. Dt. 17:8-13) which judgments included which men and writings were of God and which were not, (Mk. 11:27-33) as the historical magisterial head over Israel which was the historical instrument and steward of Scripture, "because that unto them were committed the oracles of God," (Rm. 3:2) to whom pertaineth" the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises" (Rm. 9:4) of Divine guidance, presence and perpetuation as they believed, (Gn. 12:2, 3; 17:4,7,8; Ex. 19:5; Lv. 10:11; Dt. 4:31; 17:8-13; Ps, 11:4,9; Is. 41:10, Ps. 89:33, 34; Jer. 7:23)

And instead they followed an itinerant Preacher whom the magisterium rejected, and whom the Messiah reproved them Scripture as being supreme, (Mk. 7:2-16) and established His Truth claims upon scriptural substantiation in word and in power, as did the early church as it began upon this basis. (Mt. 22:23-45; Lk. 24:27, 44; Jn. 5:36, 39; Acts 2:14-35; 4:33; 5:12; 15:6-21;17:2,11; 18:28; 28:23; Rm. 15:19; 2Cor. 12:12, etc.)

Which is in contrast to the Cath. premise, in which recognition of which writings are of God requires faith in the magisterial judges and stewards of such.

“the believer cannot believe in the Bible nor find in it the object of his faith until he has previously made an act of faith in the intermediary authorities between the word of God and his reading.” (Catholic Encyclopedia>Tradition and Living Magisterium)
“People cannot discover the contents of revelation by their unaided powers of reason and observation. They have to be told by people who have received in from on high.” ( Cardinal Avery Dulles)

Thus in apologetics toward the unconverted,in RC theology it is taught that Scripture is to be appealed to as merely reliable historical source, which hopefully helps the potential convert to place faith in Rome, and thereby know what is of God.

it should be premised that when we appeal to the Scriptures for proof of the Church's infallible authority we appeal to them merely as reliable historical sources, and abstract altogether from their inspiration.” (Catholic Encyclopedia>Infallibility)
Thus it is is presumed that should be able to discern the RCC as being of God, but not wholly God-inspired Scripture. And which , establishment, as with men of God, was essentially due to the uniquely Divine qualities and attestation, and the consensus of the people who were regenerated by faith in its gospel, with freedom to read it, contrary to much of Rome's history.

Ignorant argument # ELEVEN Who finally did decide which books were inspired and therefore belonged to the New Testament? Shortly before 400 A. D. a General Council of the Catholic Church, using the infallible authority which Christ had given to His own divine institution, finally decided which books really belonged to the New Testament and which did not.

Pure propaganda, in ignorance or denial of history. In reality, scholarly disagreements over the canonicity (proper) of certain books continued down through the centuries and right into Trent, until it provided the first "infallible," indisputable canon — after the death of Luther. Thus Luther was no maverick in this issue, which was not part of his excommunication by Rome, but had substantial RC support for his non-binding personal opinion (as he expressed it was) on the canon, being just one of many Catholic scholars to express doubt or disagreement before Trent. See Luther and the Canon of Scripture for more.

In addition, what I said in response to argument # EIGHT applies here also.

Ignorant COMMENT: In view of these historical facts, it is difficult to see how non-Catholics can deny that it was from the (Roman) Catholic Church that they received the New Testament.

Which statement actually condemns Rome since it contradicts the very gospel and revelation it cannot claim to write, but by arguing that the judge of which writings were of God and the steward of them means that she is to be submitted to in all her other judgments (which is the argument being the assertion here, then it effectively invalidates the NT church! "For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." (Matthew 7:2)

For as said, the church actually began in dissent from those who sat in the seat of Moses over Israel, to whom conditional obedience was enjoined, (Mt. 23:2; cf. Dt. 17:8-13) which judgments included which men and writings were of God and which were not, (Mk. 11:27-33) as the historical magisterial head over Israel which was the historical instrument and steward of Scripture, "because that unto them were committed the oracles of God," (Rm. 3:2) to whom pertaineth" the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises" (Rm. 9:4) of Divine guidance, presence and perpetuation as they believed, (Gn. 12:2, 3; 17:4,7,8; Ex. 19:5; Lv. 10:11; Dt. 4:31; 17:8-13; Ps, 11:4,9; Is. 41:10, Ps. 89:33, 34; Jer. 7:23)

Thus, based upon the Catholic premise, then 1st c. souls should have submitted to the judgment of those who sat in the seat of Moses as regarding who was of God, rather than following itinerant prophets and teachers and their leader whom the historical magisterium rejected! Thus the NT church has effectively been invalidated the church under this presumptuous premise.

Ignorant argument # TWELVE Why is it impossible for modern non-Catholics to check over the work done by the Church previous to 400. A. D.? The original writings were on frail material called papyrus, which had but temporary enduring qualities. While the books judged to be inspired by the Catholic Church were carefully copied by her monks, those rejected at that time were allowed to disintegrate, for lack of further interest in them. . COMMENT. What then is left for non-Catholics, except to trust the Catholic Church to have acted under divine inspiration; if at that time, why not now?

Same argument, same invalid reasoning, while even the final settling of the canon by decree of Trent can only imagine infallibility (which is based upon the novel and unScriptural premise of ensured perpetual magisterial infallibility as per Rome (and basically in primary cults) and cannot claim divine inspiration even in Catholic thelogy.

God is not the author of a merely infallible, as He is of an inspired, utterance; the former remains a merely human document. (Catholic Encyclopedia > Infallibility: https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm)

snip

The Bible teaches that the rulers of Christ's Church have authority which must be obeyed in matters of religion.

As like was enjoined toward the scribes and Pharisees, (Mt. 23:2) and is toward civil rulers, (Rm. 13:1-7) which thus requires dissent from valid authorities (which Rome is not to those without), and the poster of this prevaricating polemic is himself in schismatic dissent from the living magisterium of the church calling itself the Catholic church, and acting contrary to the broad requirements of submission many past popes. We who

I have spent enough time and energy on this fallacious failing polemic, in which none of the RC arguments have or can stand, and as typical or the same as iterations which have been refuted before, by the grace of God. As here:

10-Point+ Biblical Refutation of RC Attempted Refutation of Sola Scriptura

14 questions as regards sola scriptura versus sola ecclesia

Step-by-Step Refutation of Dave Armstrong vs. Sola Scriptura


274 posted on 09/12/2023 8:39:16 AM PDT by daniel1212 (As a damned+destitute sinner turn 2 the Lord Jesus who saves souls on His acct + b baptized 2 obey)
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To: daniel1212
Given the length of your comment, I must ask if there is a summary in there somewhere for those of us with limited time?

It looks like a powerful rebuttal, but many if not most of us just can't take an afternoon to parse such a comment.

275 posted on 09/12/2023 9:02:30 AM PDT by RoosterRedux (A person who seeks the truth with a strong bias will never find it. He will only confirm his bias.)
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To: daniel1212; ebb tide

Daniel - That’s an excellent review and refutation.

I’m guessing it will put an end to the argument.


276 posted on 09/12/2023 9:17:36 AM PDT by kinsman redeemer (The real enemy seeks to devour what is good. )
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To: Responsibility2nd

Hang in there.

Infant baptism: Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. If one holds that children believe, that might make it hard to get past the narrow gate, among other things.

Take all the stories of conversion, then assume babies are present. Did babies ask Peter, “What must we do?” There is NO evidence Lydia was married. Did babies “wash Paul’s stripes...” as the Philippian jailer did? Did babies prophesy with Cornelius? Were babies immersed? Plus, verses assert that babies in the womb have not done evil or good. Thus, they are sinless. Another verse asserts that the sin of the father is not imputed to the children. Goodbye. Original sin.

Surely you understand the steadfastness with which these errors are believed. As it is written, “Seeing, they do not perceive; hearing they do not understand.”

Early in 1 Corinthians, Paul condemns three of the four denominations in Corinth. “Did Paul die for your sins?” “Were you baptized into Paul?” The application is, “Did Peter (or Luther) die for your sins? Were you baptized into Peter (or Luther)?” Maybe, we should hunt for the church congregation for which Jesus died for our sins.

So hang in there. Best case scenario, you and I will get to enter by the narrow gate. Even so, it might not be that easy.


277 posted on 09/12/2023 9:56:34 AM PDT by NorthStarOkie (Satan doesn't have to lie if he can confuse us about the truth.)
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To: RoosterRedux
summary in there somewhere

Why, Yes! There is:


278 posted on 09/12/2023 10:11:00 AM PDT by kinsman redeemer (The real enemy seeks to devour what is good. )
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To: Tell It Right

You might be interested in a video by Gary Habermas, The Resurrection Argument That Changed a Generation of Scholars, found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ay_Db4RwZ_M&t=93s&ab_channel=TheVeritasForum

He asserts that authentic, best-practice history strongly supports the resurrection of Jesus


279 posted on 09/12/2023 10:13:44 AM PDT by NorthStarOkie (Satan doesn't have to lie if he can confuse us about the truth.)
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To: kinsman redeemer
Nah….some will just argue because they have nothing else to refute the analysis. You can take the horse to the stream but can’t make’em drink.

Those trusting in the scapular are blind to the truth.

280 posted on 09/12/2023 10:28:42 AM PDT by ealgeone
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