Posted on 08/16/2023 6:39:10 AM PDT by zucchini bob
(2 Peter 1:20) Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. (Isaiah 28:10) For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: (Isaiah 28:13) But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
just how many Mormons got exterminated?
Certainly some.
The majority thought traveling across Iowa in winter was preferable to enduring more persecution. The ultimate goal was in the West anyway.
so we have that going for us.
There’s that “us” again.
Who is us?
why is us so concerned at things going for them?
Why is us so concerned with Mormons?
Plenty of food for thought.
I on the other hand have a concern with what is getting into one of my bags of old cow manure and spreading it all over the floor of one of my sheds. I spread some glue traps around and will see if I catch anything. I didn’t think mice could move as much material as they have in a night so far.
...and if that wasn’t enough we have a yellow jacket infestation this year that is taking over honey bee hives among other things. You can’t find a yellow jacket trap anywhere in town. Sold out. So we use the tried and true recipe designed to get them drunk and drowning. Works well and the population is reduced somewhat.
Repetitious Still.
See, I got it right this time.
I would suggest Chapter 10 as a warmup.
What do YOU say??
I say does the question have anything to do with your individual salvation?
If the answer is no. Why go there?
No, fortunately. At my age, night shift might be a bit much.
General merchandizing for a few hours at farm and garden stores.
And exmo’s are revealing more and more evidence for the jury to inspect.
Exmo’s, exCatholics, exnormal’s in the world of the alphabet soup, exmuricans that’s the first place I go for the straight scoop on the subject the ex has exed.
Speaking of logic, there is none when viewing that scene for reality. You will get a view tainted by their particular experience. It’s their reality. Do you want yours to be influenced by theirs? I’ve always considered the source being much closer to reality. If I want to know about Catholics, I can talk with them go to Church with them see how they live.
What does your chosen religious organization say?
The Premortal Godhood of Christ: A Restoration Perspective | Religious Studies Center (byu.edu)
Have you not read, in the New Testament, that Jesus Christ was the first-born of every creature? From this reading it would seem that he was the oldest of the whole human family, that is, so far as his birth in the spirit world is concerned. . . . Have you not also read in the New Testament that he is called our elder brother? Does this refer to the birth of the body of flesh and bones? By no means, for there were hundreds of millions who were born upon our earth before the body of flesh and bones was born whom we call Jesus. How is it, then, that he is our elder brother? We must go back to the previous birth, before the foundation of this earth; we have to go back to past ages, to the period when he was begotten of the Father among the great family of spirits. [2]
The doctrine of the Savior’s status as firstborn has been reemphasized for our benefit in more recent times by an official pronouncement of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve given in 1916: “Among the spirit children of Elohim the first-born was and is Jehovah to whom all others are juniors.” [3]
Not only is the term Firstborn a declaration of Jesus’ status, it is also a significant name-title, one so important, in fact, that the Savior’s most faithful followers in mortality will share it throughout the eternities. Elder Bruce R. McConkie has stated that just as The Church of Jesus Christ is the name of the Savior’s earthly church, “so The Church of the Firstborn is his heavenly church, albeit its members are limited to exalted beings, for whom the family unit continues and who gain an inheritance in the highest heaven of the celestial world. (Hebrews 12:22–23; D&C 93:22.)” [4] Truly, the term Firstborn connotes family life and is an apt symbol for those exalted persons who themselves have the privilege of possessing a continuing posterity; for exalted beings will be both members of the Church of the Firstborn as well as Gods, blessed with eternal posterity (see D&C 76:58–67; 132:19–20). In an exalted family with numerous children there always has been and always will be a firstborn. Through the atonement of the Firstborn, all of us have the opportunity to become like our Eternal Parents. If we are faithful to the Firstborn, we will gain eternal families of our own that are “patterned after the family of God the Father” [5] who had a Firstborn Son.
Premortal Godhood
Because Jesus Christ was indeed the firstborn of heavenly parents and is, as pertaining to our first estate, our “elder brother,” that means He also possessed a spirit body that had a definite birth or time of organization just like every other spirit child of God. Elder McConkie taught that implicit in Jesus’ birth as a spirit child is the fact that “he had a beginning; there was a day when he came into being as a conscious identity, as a spirit entity, as an organized intelligence.” And yet, as scripture and modern prophets teach, He “is himself also the Eternal One.” [6] In other words, Jesus Christ’s spirit body had a beginning, but He is also an eternal being without beginning, who is coexistent with God, and, more importantly, was Himself God in our premortal realm.
Is this a GUESS?
What are their names??
Surely SLC knows and venerates these poor victims of religious persecution; right???
If not them, then perhaps the RLDS has a list, for after all, they stayed behind.
Surely THEY would know who got exterminated.
US has a directive from an Apostle:
Romans 15:4
For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.Romans 16:17
I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them.
I hear ya on the barn thing.
Seems like varmints tend to run in cycles from year to year.
I’ve groundhogs burrowing under my concrete barn floor!
?
Of what?
I can understand your reluctance to 'go there'; considering all that has been written about it; but what if the answer is yes?
"He (Joseph Smith) is the man through whom God has spoken... yet I would not like to call him a savior, though in a certain capacity he was a god to us, and is to the nations of the earth, and will continue to be."-- Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:321"You call us fools; but the day will be, gentlemen and ladies, whether you belong to this Church or not, when you will prize brother Joseph Smith as the Prophet of the Living God, and look upon him as a god..."-- Herber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses 5:88"If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith]"- (as quoted in 1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142)There is "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God"-- Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190"I tell you, Joseph holds the keys, and none of us can get into the celestial kingdom without passing by him. We have not got rid of him, but he stands there as the sentinel, holding the keys of the kingdom of God; and there are many of them beside him. I tell you, if we get past those who have mingled with us, and know us best, and have a right to know us best, probably we can pass all other sentinels as far as it is necessary, or as far as we may desire. But I tell you, the pinch will be with those that have mingled with us, stood next to us, weighed our spirits, tried us, and proven us: there will be a pinch, in my view, to get past them. The others, perhaps, will say, If brother Joseph is satisfied with you, you may pass. If it is all right with him, it is all right with me. Then if Joseph shall say to a man, or if brother Brigham say to a man, I forgive you your sins, "Whosoever sins ye remit they are remitted unto them;" if you who have suffered and felt the weight of transgression—if you have generosity enough to forgive the sinner, I will forgive him: you cannot have more generosity than I have. I have given you power to forgive sins, and when the Lord gives a gift, he does not take it back again."-- Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p.154-155"It is because the Lord called Joseph Smith that salvation is again available to mortal men.... If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation,"-- Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 396, 670"No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith. From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are—I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent. He holds the keys of that kingdom for the last dispensation—the keys to rule in the spirit-world; and he rules there triumphantly, for he gained full power and a glorious victory over the power of Satan while he was yet in the flesh, and was a martyr to his religion."Brigham Young, October 9, 1859
Intelligence, Etc.
Remarks by President BRIGHAM YOUNG, delivered in the Tabernacle, Great Salt Lake City, October 9, 1859.
Reported by G. D. Watt
Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, p.282-91They succeeded in killing Joseph, but he had finished his work.He was a servant of God, and gave us the Book of Mormon.He said the Bible was right in the main, but, through the translators and others, many precious portions were suppressed, and several other portions were wrongly translated; and now his testimony is in force, for he has sealed it with his blood.As I have frequently told them, no man in this dispensation will enter the courts of heaven, without the approbation of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Jun.Who has made this so?Have I?Have this people?Have the world?No; but the Lord Jehovah has decreed it.If I ever pass into the heavenly courts, it will be by the consent of the Prophet Joseph.If you ever pass through the gates into the Holy City, you will do so upon his certificate that you are worthy to pass.Can you pass without his inspection?No; neither can any person in this dispensation, which is the dispensation of the fulness of times.In this generation, and in all the generations that are to come, everyone will have to undergo the scrutiny of this Prophet.They say that they killed Joseph, and they will yet come with their hats under their arms and bend to him; but what good will it do them, unless they repent?They can come in a certain way and find favor, but will they?Brigham Young, --JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, vol. 8 p. 224God is my “right hand man.”[8]
(Joseph Smith, in a letter to James Arlington Bennett on November 13, 1843, History of the Church, (Deseret Book, 1975), vol. 6, p. 78.)
"God made Aaron to be the mouth piece for the children of Israel, and He will make me be god to you in His stead, and the Elders to be mouth for me; and if you don’t like it, you must lump it."
Joseph Smith at the LDS Conference on April 8, 1844, History of the Church, vol. 6, pp. 319-320.
"God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil—all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter- day Saints never ran away from me yet."
Joseph Smith, Sunday, May 26, 1844 History of the Church, vol. 6, pp. 408-9.
"We will become gods and have jurisdiction over worlds, and these worlds will be peopled by our own offspring. We will have an endless eternity for this.”
— Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.2, p.48
“As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become.”
Lorenzo Snow, Mormon Prophet and president
"The day will come—and it is not far distant, either—when the name of the Prophet Joseph Smith will be coupled with the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, the Son of God, as his representative, as his agent whom he chose, ordained and set apart to lay anew the foundations of the Church of God in the world, which is indeed the Church of Jesus Christ, possessing all the powers of the gospel, all the rites and privileges, the authority of the Holy Priesthood, and every principle necessary to fit and qualify both the living and the dead to inherit eternal life, and to attain to exaltation in the kingdom of God."[5]
Joseph F. Smith, sixth president of the LDS Church, Gospel Doctrine, 5th ed. [1939], p. 134; as quoted in “Joseph Smith: Restorer of Truth,” Ensign, (Dec. 2003): p. 17.
“Thus those who gain eternal life receive exaltation. . . They are gods.”
(LDS Apostle Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, pg. 237).
“We stand in reverence before him [Joseph Smith]. He is the great prophet of this dispensation. He stands at the head of this great and mighty work which is spreading across the earth. He is our prophet, our revelator, our seer, our friend. Let us not forget him. Let not his memory be forgotten in the celebration of Christmas. God be thanked for the Prophet Joseph”(Gordon B. Hinckley, the fifteenth president of the LDS Church, Ensign article entitled “Joseph Smith: Restorer of Truth,” December 2003)
My brothers and sisters, in this bicentennial year of his birth, I should like to speak of our beloved Prophet Joseph Smith. . . . In the 135th section of the Doctrine and Covenants we read the words of John Taylor concerning the Prophet Joseph: “Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it.” [D&C 135: 3]
(Thomas S. Monson, counselor to President Gordon B. Hinckley, the semi-annual LDS Conference in Salt Lake City, 2005)
Heck, a few hours a day now is all I can manage as well.
I have asked Mormons, over the years, if they can tell me where the Bible is incorrectly translated. Not a single, solitary one, has ever been able to tell me where. Not one, because they can’t.
If you deny His eternal existence you deny Who He is. Based on Scripture.
WHICH is the higher authority, Scripture or church declared doctrine?
So the burden of proof is on me to choose either/or.
I will still answer by saying for Christians, it’s inseparably BOTH.
But the gist of your question still contradicts.
I mention that this idea of "higher authority" IS NOT in the Bible, because it is not.
The basis for you question of higher authority contradicts-
because the very nature of the premise is based on a fallible doctrine of man, "scriptural authority over everything,"
that exists only as fallible doctrine.
What I am saying is that you are assuming the concept which you're attempting to state as truth. Again, the premise of this scriptural authority need you have, actually then depends upon an assumed conclusion you want to have.
You're saying a "lower", fallible, man-made, extra-biblical authority, can indeed establish a claim of, (and for)
this higher authority,
that should actually be made by that higher authority- and isn't.
The cart and horse thing I don't grasp.
And then conversely, if I was to say “declared doctrine” is of a higher authority, than that contradicts the Scriptural process that all doctrine originates from in the first place,
or that which is implicit or indirect within scripture.
You can’t have doctrine without a scriptural basis.
But that is also not the same as saying
the decision process of man to determine doctrinal authority over scriture,
such as at the Jerusalem Council carries no authority either.
It did and does.
But I think we are on the same page there that scripture and doctrine can BOTH have authority?
I feel we leave that same page when we try to establish if one is more authoritative than another on some relative basis.
And that’s grey area...
Why do you keep saying sola Scriptura means Scripture is the "sole" authority of the faith? Is it because those two words (sola and sole) are so close? Nobody claims that. What we HAVE claimed, and which Scripture itself DOES state, is that it is the ultimate rule of the faith. The very word "canon" means that.
The word “canon” means just a rule or even law.
You are changing the definition of canon when you add “Ultimate” along with canon.
Sole and sola are close to be sure, but its not just my usage as you will see below.
Being Catholic, yes, I cannot know the variations of this Sola fundamental principle that is attributed to the Reformation.
Nor can I know all the nuances of each variation either.
So Ok, I may not be citing your particular view of SS correctly,
I can only go to reference points.
But this is my understanding of what Luther first invented as a “sole” rule of faith.
If your tradition on this has varied, I would be interested to know what authority allows for anyone to deviate then from Luther’s original Sola?
Where would this succeeding authority come from to do that?
As I know, quoted below, this was the original principle, and from a Southern Baptist web site- which I would say has some decent content:
But sola Scriptura did mean that the Bible was the sole authority in the ultimate determination of our doctrine and our practice. It was the norma normans non normata (the “norm of norms that cannot be normed”), the alone guide to truth. Other avenues of truth were useful, but they all had to sit below, the one authoritative source of truth, the Bible. Sola Scriptura is indeed the “formal principle” of the Protestant Reformation.
So this is what I know to be the doctrine Luther came up with.
If that is a wrong teaching for me, I cannot know.
Its what I have heard over the years.
If this doctrine has been modified, to be more accepting of doctrine- I do not know.
Though ever since this was written, in most forms, its been shown to be full of holes. Its wholly extra-biblical as his personal doctrine of his-
that has NO authority other than his scholarship.
(Though his ego was too big to be controlled…
he was a very good theologian who like any fallible person would,
got some things wrong.)
He, I guess, assumed that Christians of the first 5-10 centuries had access to the Bible as rule of their faith, though they did not.
He had plenty of access, but to presume a bible-based doctrine is necessary on the first Christians- who had no Bible in the first place-
couldn’t have been the way Christ had wanted.
Luther even claimed “James” was not scripture and wanted to toss it-
but knew that was a deal breaker for his personal doctrine.
And as stated, it to contradicts the "highest authority" of scripture in that of St. Paul who very plainly had it is the Church which is the Pillar and Bulwark “of the Truth”.Not scripture, but the Church.
Nor does this say though either,
the Church has ALL authority over scripture.
The Church has been given authority to interpret scripture for the development of doctrine-
and to adjudicate scriptural error as it did in the situations you point out, with the Docetists and Gnostics back in the day.
Why else did God provide and preserve the written words of the Old and New Testaments if the traditions of the church were adequate to know it? Shall I post that list of Elsie's of all the times Scripture affirms the authority of the written word?
Ok, now look what you did with that question.
You went from authority… to knowing the “written words”…
Those are 2 different things. Transmission of the Gospel for the faithful to know was very important, to Jesus, yes.
And I would say his reliance on his Apostolic teachers to build his Church was that method.
Again, like Luther, you are assuming everyone had access to scripture, were fluent and all they had to do was read it. Which most were illiterate… and gentiles of the day would not be familiar with written Jewish scripture in the first place.
So scripture could not mean much to them anyway.
To answer your question, the Traditions of the Church were exactly how the scriptures got into the ears of the people, and much later into their hands.
BOTH Scripture and Church important… not Either/Or.
St Paul tells of us those traditions as well, to hold fast… by oral OR written (letter).
BOTH forms is what he is saying …
He is not saying Written is better than oral-
he is making them EQUAL in importance for his converts to follow.
No, vain, repititous TLDR cut/paste posts can’t undo what Christ tells us…”
+++39 You search the scriptures,
because you think that in them you have eternal life;
and it is they that bear witness to me;
40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.+++
“He who hears you; hears ME.”.
We can be sure that we have the "faith which was once delivered unto the saints” (Jude 3) because we have Sacred Scripture to rely upon. It is the measuring rod for the doctrines of our faith.
Yes- totally agree, scripture is most often necessary to develop the doctrines
that we can follow and rely on (IF INTERPRETED CORRECTLY) as to be able to live in Christ easier.
That’s as far as it goes. The scriptures cannot save you.
Any life in that scripture comes from and through Christ,
without the Incarnation of Christ, scripture are just ancient words on a page.
And The Word was made Flesh.
HE was given all authority and power from God,
and passed that onto an Apostolic tradition.
The Jews had all the scripture… look where that got them.
The Docetists, Gnostics and Arians- all had scripture look where that led them.
Was their authority inspired by scripture for their false beliefs?
They would say their beliefs are correct, and that it validated their interpretation of scripture. so - that THEY were correct about scripture-
and they had to feel they were right in their beliefs -
though I don't think claimed authority of scripture as a basis-
because they knew there were diffrent, older interpretations that challenged what they were protesting.
The fallacy that scripture is the only rule of Faith-
Scripture Alone- or whatever it is …
has never worked out- and to this day does not-
should be the only evidence you need that it is a failed doctrine.
——>But it does contradict. Your last question was:
WHICH is the higher authority, Scripture or church declared doctrine?
Sunday-keeping Protestants are hypocrites. They claim Sola Scriptura, yet keep Sunday as holy, a day which has no scriptural authority. It is literally the entire reason that the Reformation failed, at the Council of Trent. They dump on the Catholic Church for tradition, yet keep the Sunday sacredness, as instituted by the Catholic Church, AS TRADITION. That is the ultimate hypocrisy. They are in effect bowing to the AUTHORITY of the Catholic Church.
Rome’s Challenge:
Sunday-keeping Christians are hypocrites...Tradition vs Sola Scriptura. No matter what they say, you say (wait, I recently had someone say that to me as well...Elsie???), they are hypocrites for calling YOU out on tradition, when THEY keep holy a day, based solely on TRADITION, and not Sola Scriptura. Shame on them for being hypocrites. Murph, you got em. Now go get em.
Rome’s Challenge: (it should be called: Sunday-keeping Protestants are hypocrites. Or, “Who cares about Mormonism, when Sunday-keeping Protestants are hypocrites”, etc...)
https://www.romeschallenge.com/downloads/RomesChallenge.pdf
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