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To: Philsworld
Can either of you give me a list of all the Protestant Reformers that taught the PTR/Futurism? You won’t find any, because the theory came from the counter reformation of the Catholic Church (Jesuit division). It is antibiblical and satanic, as are the teachings of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is the Antichrist power/Little Horn. The Reformers all saw it. Congratulations on being successfully counter reformed.

Faith comes from Hearing the Word. And the Holy Spirit leads you to Truth. And THE TRUTH makes you free. When you rely on men, even religious men, you often land in the ditch. With that said...

All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins.
From Pseudo-Ephraem, On the Last Times - Pseudo-Ephraem claims that his sermon was written by Ephraem of Nisibis (306-73)
The Rapture in Pseudo-Ephraem

In 1995 Frank Marotta and John Bray brought to light the pretribulation rapture teaching of Morgan Edwards, a Baptist theologian of the 1700’s and founder of Brown University. In a treatise entitled Two Academical Exercises on Subjects Bearing the Following Titles; Millennium, Last-Novelties written between 1742 and 1744, Edwards taught that three and a half years before the Antichrist will kill the two witnesses of Revelation 11, the Son of Man will appear in the clouds to raise the dead, change the living, and catch them up to Himself.

It has all the elements of the rapture story, only the length of the Tribulation is different.
This author also mentions Brother Dolcino of the 14th century.
A Rapture Citation in the Fourteenth Century

John Walvoord’s assessment is likely close to the truth: any careful student of Darby soon discovers that he did not get his eschatological views from men, but rather from his doctrine of the church as the body of Christ, a concept no one claims was revealed supernaturally to Irving or Macdonald. Darby’s views undoubtedly were gradually formed, but they were theologically and biblically based rather than derived from Irving’s pre-Pentecostal group.

Myths of the Origin of the Rapture

It is NOT from deceptive Jesuits, or from the imagination of a Scottish lass. Its in God's Word, clearly visible when you rightly divide the Word, understanding the clear differences between Israel, and the Body of Christ. If it was never mentioned until Darby, I would be fine, because I see it CLEARLY in the Word. And its no surprise that eschatology was not high on the agenda for religious scholars - a very small number - for 1800 years until the modern era. And any idea that deviated from what Rome declared, often ended in a fiery display of religious displeasure. Once printing was available, better translations in the original languages were accessible, and folks had more freedom to read and meditate on the Word, suddenly there is an explosion of people who see the same - or very close to the same things.

I also believe that a basic understanding of dispensationalism is quite helpful in understanding the Bible. These ideas have been percolating some time going back to its primitive roots around the 2nd century. Wikipedia actually has a decent summary of this.

Dispensationalism

A Short History of Dispensationalism
134 posted on 04/28/2023 10:06:43 PM PDT by Kandy Atz ("Were we directed from Washington when to sow and when to reap, we should soon want for bread.")
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To: Kandy Atz

——>Once printing was available, better translations in the original languages were accessible, and folks had more freedom to read and meditate on the Word, suddenly there is an explosion of people who see the same - or very close to the same things.

Yeah, they all saw that the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH was the Antichrist power, like John Knox, in his first public sermon at St. Andrews, on Daniel 7 and the Little Horn.

The Antichrist power is the Papacy. Every Protestant Reformer knew it, because it’s the only answer based on bible prophecy.

The Little Horn/Antichrist power comes out of the 4th beast, PAGAN ROME, and lasts until Christ’s second coming.

The PTR theory is impossible if the Little Horn/Antichrist power is the Papacy. That’s why most who believe in the PTR refuse to discuss it. And that’s EXACTLY why the Jesuits came up with it. They also deny the teachings of the ECF’s on the Restrainer, who almost all saw as PAGAN ROME.


136 posted on 04/29/2023 12:06:00 PM PDT by Philsworld (Saints are saints and angels are angels, except when they're called saints. )
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To: Kandy Atz

It will rise to be a great power after the fall of the pagan Roman Empire (after 476 AD)
It would uproot three of the ten kingdoms the Roman Empire collapsed into
It will be a geographically small nation (a little horn)
It will rule over many people, nations and tongues (it will be universal)
It will be headquartered in the city of seven hills, Rome
It will be a religio-political entity - a political city-state ruled by a priest-king
Its priest-king will make great and blasphemous claims
It will claim authority over all kings
It will claim its power to change the holy times and laws of God as its mark of authority
It will be an apostate Church that makes the nations drink her cup of apostate doctrine
It will be a “mother” Church, with apostate daughters coming from her
It will be a persecuting power, killing the faithful saints of Jesus Christ as heretics
It will hold power and authority for 1260 years following the fall of pagan Rome
It will suffer a deadly wound that will end 1260 years of dominance and persecution
It will be revived after the deadly wound, and all the world would wonder at its revival

https://www.who-is-the-antichrist.org/


137 posted on 04/29/2023 12:40:51 PM PDT by Philsworld (Saints are saints and angels are angels, except when they're called saints. )
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To: Kandy Atz

Regarding Brother Dolcino:

Thomas Ice confronted me after our debate at BIOLA (February 2002) about Francis X. Gumerlock’s statement in his book The Day and the Hour (2000), a book published by American Vision and edited by me, that “The Dolcinites held to a pre-tribulation rapture theory similar to that of modern dispensationalism” ((Day and the Hour, 80)).

If Ice and other dispensationalists want to claim the Dolcinites as proto-dispensationalists, they can have them. According to Gumerlock, Brother Dolcino and his followers “believed that they were the only true church of the latter days…. Believing they were living in the last three and a half years of End-time tribulation, Dolcino and his followers, motivated by certain Bible passages, fled ‘Babylon’ for the mountains of Piedmont. In the mountains they armed themselves for conflict with the papal forces of Clement V, in 1307 a bloodbath ensued in which four hundred of them were killed. Dolcino was burned at the stake.” ((Day and the Hour, 80)).

If Dolcino believed in a pre-trib rapture, why would he and his followers escape to the mountains and arm themselves?

As far as I can tell, Dolcino does not make a biblical argument for his views.

There are more problems with using Dolcino’s views to support a pre-trib rapture. The fourteenth-century text, The History of Brother Dolcino, “was composed in 1316 by an anonymous source,” ((James F. Stitzinger, “The Rapture in Twenty Centuries of Biblical Interpretation,” TMSJ 13/2 (Fall 2002), 159. See Francis X. Gumerlock, “A Rapture Citation in the Fourteenth Century,” Bibliotheca Sacra 159 (July-September 2002), 354–355.)) meaning that this text was not written by Dolcino. The original letters of Dolcino are not in existence.

Dolcino and his Apostolic Brethren were a violent cult hell bent on the purification of the Roman Catholic Church through violence that ended in their destruction. ((Gian Luca Potesta, “Radical Apocalyptic Movements in the Late Middle Ages,” The Continuum History of Apocalypticism, eds. Bernard McGinn, John J. Collins, and Stephen J. Stein (New York: Continuum, 2003), 300–302.))

Dolcino justified the actions of his followers by appealing to Titus 1:15: “To the pure all things are pure, but to the corrupt and unbelieving nothing is pure; their very minds and consciences are corrupted.” “As reported by the Anonymous Synchronous, Dolcino maintained “[…] that it was legitimate for him and his followers to hang, behead, […] people who obey … the Roman church and burn down, destroy, […] because they were acting to redeem them and thus without sin.”

Even after all that we know of Dolcino and his cult, Thomas Ice still wants to claim him as someone who taught a pre-trib rapture before Darby.

This is typical of dispensationalists who will enter almost any source into evidence if it can be used to prop up their system.

https://americanvision.org/22451/is-the-pre-tribulation-rapture-found-before-the-19th-century/


138 posted on 04/29/2023 1:17:22 PM PDT by Philsworld (Saints are saints and angels are angels, except when they're called saints. )
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To: Kandy Atz

Raptured or not raptured? That is the
question. David Malcolm Bennett

David Bennett is currently doing doctoral research on the origins of Left Behind eschatology, through the University of Queensland.

KEY WORDS: Ephraem, Pseudo-Ephraem, Fra Doleino, rapture, tribulation, ‘Left Behind’, millennium.

https://biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/eq/2008-2_143.pdf


139 posted on 04/29/2023 1:52:28 PM PDT by Philsworld (Saints are saints and angels are angels, except when they're called saints. )
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