Posted on 03/10/2023 7:00:05 AM PST by SeekAndFind
Former Saddleback Church pastor and founder Rick Warren recently laid out three passages from the Bible that led him to conclude that it is acceptable for women to serve in the office of pastor.
Saddleback Church, the California-based megachurch founded by Warren in 1980, was recently expelled from the Southern Baptist Convention for having a woman fill the office of teaching pastor. The church plans to appeal the decision later this year. Since Warren's retirement last year, the church has been led by Andy and Stacie Wood.
In a podcast interview with former SBC Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission President Russell Moore posted Wednesday, Warren said he believes that "we have to approach Scripture humbly" and that "the Church at its best was the Church at its birth."
"This is not a battle between liberals and conservatives. All the liberals left a long time ago. Everybody in the SBC believes in the inerrancy of Scripture," said Warren. "Now we are talking about difference of interpretation."
The best-selling author of The Purpose Driven Life laid out three Scripture passages that led him to conclude three years ago that it was acceptable for women to become pastors.
Warren first cited Matthew 28:19-20. Known as the Great Commission, the passage involves Jesus telling His disciples to "go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you."
"We claim that we believe that the Great Commission is for everybody, both men and women are to fulfill the Great Commission," Warren argued.
"There are four verbs in the Great Commission: 'go,' 'make disciples,' 'baptize' and 'teach.' Women are to go. Women are to make disciples. Women are to baptize and women are to teach, not just men."
The second passage he cited was the day of Pentecost, as explained in Acts 2, in which the Holy Spirit came down upon the early church, with those present speaking in foreign tongues.
"We know women were in the room. We know women were filled with the Holy Spirit," said Warren. "We know that women were preaching in languages that other people couldn't hear to a mixed audience. We know women; it wasn't just men; women were preaching on the day of Pentecost."
Warren noted that, in the passage, when the Apostle Peter told the crowd what was happening, he quoted the Old Testament verse of Joel 2:28, which states, "on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy."
His third verse of evidence was John 20:17 when Jesus told Mary Magdalene to tell the disciples about his resurrection, noting that Jesus "chose her to be the first preacher of the Gospel."
Warren added that while he supported women becoming pastors, he stressed that "it doesn't bother me if you disagree with me," noting, "I have to say, I could be wrong."
"For 2,000 years, the Church has debated the role of women in culture, but to make it a litmus test for 'are you a Baptist or not?' is nonsense," he continued.
Warren was asked if Saddleback will appeal the expulsion at the SBC Annual Meeting in June. He replied that while he just wants to "walk away from it," he also felt that he had to do so.
"I need to stand up for the pastors who are scared to death by this inquisition, and I think I need to stand up for the millions of godly Southern Baptist women whose gifts and leadership skills are being stymied," said Warren.
Warren told Moore that while he believed that churches should be expelled from the SBC for "sin, racism, sexual abuse, other sexual sins, things like that," having a woman serving as a pastor should not be one of them.
"We should kick out churches for sin. We should kick out churches that harm the testimony of the convention. This isn't harming the testimony of anybody," he added.
Supporters of the SBC prohibition on women pastors include Owen Strachan, a theology professor at Grace Bible Theological Seminary and a critic of Saddleback's direction on the issue.
In a Facebook comment responding to Saddleback's 2021 announcement that it ordained three women as pastors, Strachan cited 1 Timothy 2:9-15, which includes the verse in which Apostle Paul writes: "I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet."
"Churches that affirm women pastors are opposing the Word of God, and opposing the Word of God means opposing God himself," said Strachan.
"Now is the time to leave and find a sound congregation. Do not delay. There is no spirit of competition in what I write here; what Saddleback is doing grieves me, and I have no doubt grieves many in the congregation."
Warren retired as senior pastor of Saddleback last September, succeeded by Pastors Andy Wood and Stacie Wood, who Saddleback identifies as its teaching pastor.
Last month, the SBC Executive Committee approved a recommendation from the SBC Credentials Committee to label Saddleback and four other churches as "not in friendly cooperation with the Southern Baptist Convention" over their decision to allow women to hold the office of pastor.
SBC's Executive Committee Chairman Jared Wellman said in a statement to Baptist Press that the disaffiliations came because of "the churches continuing to have a female functioning in the office of pastor."
"As stated in the Baptist Faith and Message Article VI, the SBC holds to the belief that the office of pastor is limited to men as qualified by Scripture," stated Wellman in February.
"These churches have been valued, cooperating churches for many years, and this decision was not made lightly. However, we remain committed to upholding the theological convictions of the SBC and maintaining unity among its cooperating churches."
In the SBC, local churches ordain pastors, not the denomination as a whole.
Last August, prominent SBC theologians Richard Land, Albert Mohler and Chuck Kelley published a statement clarifying the meaning of the word "pastor" to mean "one who fulfills the pastoral office and carries out the pastor's functions." The three men were tasked with writing a study guide for the Baptist Faith & Message when it was revised in 2000.
"[I]t is important to understand that the word pastor was chosen precisely because of its clarity among Southern Baptists. The statement carefully affirms that both men and women are gifted for service in the church, but the role of pastor is biblically defined and is to be held only by men as qualified by Scripture," they stated.
The 2000 Baptist Faith & Message establishes that "pastor" was not to be used to describe every ministerial position within a church.
“Now we are talking about difference of interpretation.”
Spoken like a typical liberal.
He's just not credible.
One can teach without being in a leadership position. My wife and I teach and lead marriage groups——nothing wrong with that. Being a Pastor and HEAD of a flock or Church is completely different.
Not a good pastor. Period. He supported Clinton/Gore on the Abortion topic and defended Clinton’s womanizing
Very thin gruel.
A fantastic example of an undisciplined hermeneutic. He wanted a result and hunted down unrelated proof texts.
“..One can teach without being in a leadership position. My wife and I teach and lead marriage groups——nothing wrong with that. Being a Pastor and HEAD of a flock or Church is completely different....”
^THIS^
Absolutely right. He lost me at Matt 28:19. Yes, they went out, but we are not told that women preached to men. In fact, if he knew the tradition of this, he would deduce that women taught women. That’s just the way it was. That passage doesn’t even come close in allowing women to be Pastors.
He twists the Gospel.
By his opinion any lay person is qualified as a preacher / teacher because we are all called to preach the Gospel. He is intentionally conflating the practice of announcing the word with being an elder and responsible for educating the word at a deeper level.
Why am I not surprised that his argument would be unconvincing?
Did Warren get that revelation when he was at 30,000 feet in his private jet?
Why am I not surprised that his argument would be unconvincing?
Being a witness and making disciples is not a matter only for the guy in the pulpit. Women can “as they go” do just that as well as any other. But holding a specific office, aside from that of deacon, is a different matter.
The office of deacon are ministering servants, a position that came about to let the apostles (and later pastors and elders however they are called) concentrate on the proclamation of the word rather than take food or other needs to people. Deacons are not leaders. Women in Scripture are mentioned in this role.
When you don’t use the Bible as your guide, over time things become muddled. In New Testament times, the word “pastor” (also translated “shepherd”) is made equivalent to the terms “elder” (also translated “presbyter”) or “bishop” (also translated “overseer”). One of the qualifications of an elder is that he be the husband of one wife. Just saying.
It only takes a simple historical reference. There were women among our Lord’s disciples, His mother included. The Samaritan woman gave a great example of discipleship in John 4. Mary Magdalene gave testimony as shown here. However, not one of them was an Apostle nor among those at the Council of Jerusalem. Not one of them wrote an Epistle.
Rick Warren tries to read into the texts what he wants to see but ignores texts that completely contradict his thesis. A bishop must be blameless and have one wife (1 Tim 3:2). A deacon must be the husband of one wife (1 Tim 3:12). If we can agree that God isn’t in favor of homosexuality, it’s clear that ecclesiastical office is reserved to men.
Going further... women were commanded to be silent in church (1 Cor 14:34). Pretty hard to be a pastor and silent in church at the same time. Suffer not a woman to teach nor usurp authority (1 Tim 2:12). Hard to not teach and be a pastor.
This isn’t to say that women are denigrated in Christianity. There are simply prescribed roles in the Church.
Private interpretation of Scripture leads to disunity (2 Peter 1:20). There must be a central teaching authority for unity. Christians shouldn’t just be handed a book to be memorized, they should be taught (Acts 8:26-40). Don’t forget that the devil can read and quote Scripture also (as he does with Christ in the desert). His quoting of Scripture, though, is for his own purpose and not God’s. We also should be careful about reading our own agenda into Scripture at the expense of God’s.
I would apply a label to this issue as “non essential” doctrine. The essential doctrine of Christianity is Christ and him crucified. If you’re not talking about that, then you’re debating the number of angels can dance on the head of a pin. If you’re comfortable with a female pastor then fine. If that gives you discomfort then that’s okay too. I’m not going to pass judgement on another person who goes to a church with a female pastor. I may not go there, but we should be charitable to people who choose that path. Maybe they’ll be led on a different path later.
Just like people who choose to smoke. I personally quit, but It’s wrong for me to then demand other people change their behavior because of it. Even as that population seems to be increasing exponentially, there’s few things more obnoxious than a militant non-smoker. Similarly, if I choose to go to a baptist church, I would be incorrect (as i was in my youth) in demanding that the catholics with their statue kissing and and saint worship are idolatrous heathens. When I grew up I realized that we’re all part of the same body and the hand can’t say to the foot that he’s not needed.
I’m sure that, controversially, there’s some actual churches that will cater to LGBT communities too. I’m not talking about the communist front ‘activist’ churches preaching militant liberation theology. I’m certain there’ll be actual LGBT Churches that really minister to these groups in their need with mercy and humility, and without judgement or condemnation. In my opinion, we should not militate against each other. We all start someplace... Come to him as you are, consuming spiritual milk and then grow in faith to consuming solid spiritual nourishments. Let him do the work that’s required to melt a stony heart. Stop striving against him. We should maybe work on our own stony hearts before requiring others to repair theirs.
Just as the devil did with Jesus in the desert. Reading the Bible doesn't make you a saint... the devil can read. Understanding it for God's purpose is necessary. For that... someone must teach.
Rick is either biblically ignorant
Or a tare.
1Ti 2:12 - I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[fn] she must be quiet.
Rick Warren is a woke fraud.
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