Posted on 01/17/2023 7:36:54 AM PST by MurphsLaw
Friends, in today’s Gospel,
Jesus acknowledges that he is “lord even of the sabbath.”
And the claim of the first Christians was Iesous Kyrios—
Jesus is Lord.
This was bound to annoy both Jews and Gentiles.
The Jews would be massively put off by the use of the term Kyrios in describing an ordinary human being.
Moreover, the implication that this man was the Messiah of Israel—when he had died at the hands of Israel’s enemies—
was simply blasphemous.
And for the Greeks, this claim was subversive,
for a watchword of the time was Kaiser Kyrios—the Emperor is Lord.
A new system of allegiance was being proposed,
a new type of ordering and lordship—
and this was indeed a threat to the regnant system.
Christians should enter the public arena boldly and confidently,
for we are not announcing a private or personal spirituality
but rather declaring a new King under whose lordship everything must fall.
If Jesus is truly Lord, then government, business, family life, the arts, sexuality, and entertainment
all come properly under his headship.
Is Bishop Robert Barron actually advocating for the Sabbath as the day of worship and contemplation? Or is he borrowing that word and using it for Sunday worship?
The Pharisees applied a man made viewpoint on the Sabbath that was never meant to be. Picking the grains and rolling them in their hands was a type of threshing and processing. This was not “work”, this was eating because they were hungry not to make a dollar (or sheckel if you prefer). To the Pharisees, this was unlawful. But Jesus applied common sense. To do good is lawful on the Sabbath (and every other day).
The reflection is only that of the specific Gospel reading.
Today's reading is Christ proclaiming Lordship over everything-
even over the sabbath which was/is important to the Jewish Faithful :
" That is why the Son of Man is lord even of the sabbath."
The point being, it is now the obedience to Christ's Lordship,
that orders all other aspects of our lives.
That's all.
"Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath."
Jesus heals on the sabbath... even says its ok to pull a sheep out of the pit on the sabbath!!
So we too - should do some good then !!
I don't see in Scripture anything about replacement. True, circumcision is a "work" and does not save, but it was used as a hygienic act. Like most works, it didn't save but it kept Israelite's separate from the other nations and showed obedience to God.
The "Lord's Day" has replaced the Jewish Sabbath- for Christians
Again, not Scriptural. The Ten Commandments were wrote in stone to show permanence.
Did Jesus keep the Sabbath? Yes.
Did the Apostles keep the Sabbath? Yes.
Jesus declares Himself Lord of the Sabbath, so he is declaring that His day, not Sunday.
If ye love Me, keep my Commandments. Need to check them again. Note, they are Commandments, not suggestions.
My bad there Bob- using “replaced” was not as specific as it could have been – or intending Baptism to be the “exact” replacement for the ed to be exacting- as it could have been. You then derived some misguided notions which I need fleshing out.
When Peter proclaims “Baptism NOW saves you” means in a general way it NOW does something - that something else used to do… (“replace” in a general sense is what I was going for.)
With circumcision, it was the action required for the first covenantal bond for the chosen people beginning with Abraham- and where St. Paul would then much later proclaim “circumcision” was - NO longer necessary.
Although of course at one time it was for God, as he commanded.
(In a well earned nod to Ferris here - regarding those Jews,
Yes-“ you absolutely could be cutoff… if you weren’t cut off !
So, no .. not a direct “replacement” tit for tat- per se, but very much like it…
The "Lord's Day" has replaced the Jewish Sabbath- for Christians
Again, not Scriptural.
Again, “replaced” admittedly not an accurate specific- but again just the same as Baptism… Something is done now (anew) vs. what was done before by the Jewish people.
Be careful not to impose current day Christian worshipping standards back into the 1st century. Converting the Jews was not as easy as a flip of the switch. Jews still dominated Israel- these followers of the "Way" were a small minority.
Many of the Jews who were looking to follow Christ and his disciples would still observe the Jewish Sabbath, and then the next day break bread on the Lord’s Day.
It does seem improbable that you could convert Jews - and they still kept the practice of their usual Synagogue Sabbath.
Why convert to the same then?
These new Christians were a very small cult to start out with.
No way were they going to muscle out the Jewish Sabbath ritual from the Temple structures- and make it "theirs"…
so it would make sense they would in fact need their own day to worship the Resurrection of the Lord- which was scripturally was the day after the Sabbath. (Emmaus)
The Ten Commandments were wrote in stone to show permanence. Did Jesus keep the Sabbath? Yes. Did the Apostles keep the Sabbath? Yes.
Yes of course because they were observant Jews following their laws and rituals.
Then it happened.
Was Jesus Baptized? Yes
Were the Apostles Baptized? Yes
Did the Apostles keep the Sabbath AFTER the Resurrection?
Scripture is not explicitly conclusive on this I grant you.
But what St. Paul says- as I pointed out to someone who takes issue with this Sabbath deal…
St. Paul EXPLICITLY does say to the Collossians:
“Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in regard to food or drink or in respect to festival, or a new moon OR A SABBATH DAY—things which are a mere shadow [Greek, skia] of what is to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.”
Did you catch that? OR A Sabbath day… NOT … THE Sabbath day…
so St. Paul is CLEARLY making mention of A Sabbath day that someone might pass judgement on them…
As it IS a "mere shadow OF WHAT IS TO COME".
That meaning of what Paul is saying has to be reconciled by you.
It cannot be ignored..
BTW- Was it ever called the “New Sabbath” in the Bible?
Is there any scripture that says the breaking of bread and drinking of the cup occurred on THE Sabbath?
Or are you assuming just as I am…
without explicit scriptural evidence one way or another – that there is to be ONLY one Sabbath day- which keep in Mind- the Commandments were also amended by Christ… regarding their inferred “permanency”.
Christ’s Resurrection changed the world. It changed how we worshipped God.
Jesus declares Himself Lord of the Sabbath,
so he is declaring that His day, not Sunday.
No- that’s is NOT what Jesus is declaring.
That’s what YOU are wanting to read into it.
Not Scriptural Bob.
and place Exodus and Leviticus in primacy over the Gospel writers.
God does not contradict Himself. Exodus and Leviticus are in complete harmony with the Gospel in the NT. [16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. 2Tim. 3:16,17
Anyone can twist scripture as they need to believe...
That would be something you (and the world) would know about.
Really Bob? False witness?
I wrote "I FEEL you dismiss" ... I did not accuse you of anything.
That's you seeing in the text what you need to see...
I did not accuse you of anything -
that would allow you to accuse me of breaking the 8th.
I really have no clue what your religion is really even about...
But if it disregards the worship of the Resurrection- which it sounds to me like it does,
and you wish to hold to the Jewish covenantal sabbath instead...
it seems somewhat dismissive- in priority- in favor of something over something else...
One thing being logically more important than the other.
Anyone can twist scripture as they need to believe...
That would be something you (and the world) would know about.
I gave you a direct quote from scripture:
“Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in regard to
food or drink or in respect to festival, or a new moon OR A SABBATH DAY
You kindly replied,
"Yeah. Every Sunday keeper runs to this one. One has to look at this in context."
WHAT CONTEXT can there be for "do not pass judgement.." ? Yes you defllected away from that-
but If "I say you are wrong" for worshipping on Saturday- or Wednesday night- OR Sunday- then I am disregarding St. Paul's writing here.
There's simply no way I can twist out of that.
Again... You seem dismissive of that scriptural quote- but understand I wanted to go to other ancient writings , The Didache or Pliny...
but did want to get into the Sola Scriptura rabbit hole.
But I do wonder if you feel the ancients got t wrong as well..
Can I ask - What do you make of this writing- from St Ignatius?:
St. Ignatius of Antioch
Letter to the to the Magnesians
(circa 100 A.D.)
8 Do not be led astray by wrong views or by outmoded tales that count for nothing.
For if we still go on observing Judaism, we admit we never received grace.
The divine prophets themselves lived Christ Jesus’ way.
That is why they were persecuted, for they were inspired by his grace to convince unbelievers that God is one,
and that he has revealed himself in his Son Jesus Christ,
who is his Word issuing from the silence
and who won the complete approval of him who sent him.
9 Those, then, who lived by ancient practices arrived at a new hope.
They ceased to keep the Sabbath and lived by the Lord’s Day,
on which our life as well as theirs shone forth, thanks to Him and his death, though some deny this.
Through this mystery we got our faith,
and because of it we stand our ground so as to become disciples of Jesus Christ, our sole teacher.
...
Now you can go online and read the whole Epistle he wrote to this community.
The Christology of this letter IS spot on in every level with regard to what most Christians believe.
Now when the Bishop of Antioch is clearly stating they ceased to keep the sabbath- and "lived by the Lord's Day" -
How could he be so right about everything else - but about ceasing the Sabbath.
It does not make sense he would get that part wrong.
And he was a student of Polycarp who was a disciple of the Apostle John.
Hw do you reconcile your anti-"Sunday Keeper" beliefs when you read something as ancient as this... AND WAY BEFORE THE Anti-Christ of Papal Rome had yet evolved??
Do you not see how this is undeniable evidence of how the very first Christians believed- and lived out their Faith?
In the early Church, Jews and Gentiles were thrown together and they each had certain cultures, customs including foods and holidays. For example, you may think of Christmas as a “Christian” holiday, but it’s not. Jesus never celebrated Christmas. But the Jews were not to judge you for it if that is what you want.
Besides it’s not my judgment you should be concerned about, it’s Gods. And He clearly states His desires in text which the world ignores.
The Sabbath was instituted in the beginning. That day belongs to God. He said so. In Leviticus, He mentions the words forever and perpetuity. Words have meanings. God gave us (mankind) His Ten Commandments. Wrote in stone. They were stored in the Ark of the Covenant which is a replica of the one in Heaven. Rev. 11:19. That’s right, the Ten Commandments are in Heaven. The Sabbath will be kept in Heaven.
Then we have the example of Jesus keeping the Sabbath and going to the synagogue on the Sabbath (as was His custom). He kept it in life (and death in the tomb). And anyone who says they are a Christian and following Christ would note the things which He did. Sabbath keeping was one.
Now you can follow St. Ignatius of Antioch OR you can follow Jesus of Nazareth. Your choice. They are not the same choice. The world has been deceived on this point even though it was predicted in the Bible. 2 Thess. 2:10,11. You think you are honoring God by celebrating the Resurrection on Sunday, but that is NOT what God said to do. But you are now thinking ALL of the Churches and St. Ignatius of Antioch can’t be wrong. Actually yes they can. Jesus questions whether He will find ANYONE practicing what He taught and did. Luke 18:8.
I will close by the words of Jesus “If you love me, keep my Commandments.” Do you love Jesus or do you choose your denomination, your pastor or the world and all it has in it?
There is no Jewish Sabbath. There is Gods Sabbath. Don't be spreading misinformation.
And followed ALL the commandments to love Jesus- Couldn't I still sin my rear end off
The short answer is NO. Gods Law is based on love. 1 John 4:16. The New Covenant is based on you getting a new heart. The Law (which condemns and does not save. That is not its purpose) is based on love and duty. The first four commandments are our duty to God and the next six are our duty to our fellow man. You cannot follow the law unless you are saved and have this new heart. You must want to follow Jesus no matter where he leads. You must want to please God instead of going along (with the world) to get along.
Really what you are trying to do is get into Heaven through legalism with your argument. You can say "Well I didn't kill anybody today, so I'm good". God wants you to not even think about killing anybody and the only way to do that is have a new heart. You cannot obey the Ten Commandments without this new heart. That was the mistake the Pharisees made. Don't be a Pharisee.
I believe that as well.
and so the Lord's Day became the day we rest and honor God-
Where is that order given? Where does it say, whoopsie God made a mistake. He's now changing the day of rest to Sunday from the seventh. I tell what I do see. "If ye love me, keep my Commandments". That's how you honor God. By obedience.
The mountain of evidence that you think supports your position is false. Just read the Bible. Why does the fourth Commandment start with the word "Remember" as if people would forget?
“Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
Dan. 7:25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, Shall persecute the saints of the Most High, And shall intend to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand For a time and times and half a time.
The changing of the Sabbath to Sunday is the work of the Anti-Christ. The world is under a strong delusion. 2 Thess. 2:11. You are convinced God has one set of rules for one group of people and another for another group of people. That makes no sense whatsoever. God does not discriminate. There is one set of rules (The Ten Commandments) that we will be judged by. There is one Heaven (not two for two different groups). You should want to be grafted in to the Chosen People category.
For any belief system to come along, almost 2000 years later, and claim...
The Sabbath has been here since Creation. I am sure Adam and Eve practiced it. As well as Abraham and Moses and the Apostles. It will be practiced in Heaven as well. Gods words were that it was “forever” and in “perpetuity”. Jesus said “And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.” Matt. 24:20. This was an event 70 years after He was crucified.
Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Here it is plain one of Gods Commandments will be replaced with one of mans commandments. Just which commandment would it be easiest to convince men to replace? The mountain of evidence you claim to have is against your position. It doesn't matter what the whole world believes and teaches because one plus God is always a majority. He will not be mocked.
The Sabbath was instituted at Creation for all of mankind. There weren't any Jews with Adam and Eve. The idea the Sabbath is just for Jews is ludicrous and non-Biblical.
MOST proof texting fails because only a partial bit
Of scripture is used to make a case.
In your case here- THE FULL TEXT of that scripture fails you.
The Rich Young Man
16 And behold, one came up to him, saying,
“Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?”
17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good?
One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”
18 He said to him, “WHICH?”
And Jesus said,
“You shall not kill,
You shall not commit adultery,
You shall not steal,
You shall not bear false witness,
19 Honor your father and mother,
and,
You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
1. IF THE SHABBAT was so dang important to Jesus-
Why the heck did Jesus NOT MENTION IT here?
That's a BIG omission for you to brush off.
2. THE YOUNG MAN ASKS - specifically-
WHICH ?Commandments
must he follow-
AND JESUS LISTS WHICH ONES...
WHERE HE COULD HAVE SIMPLY SAID " ALL"
20 The young man said to him,
“ALL these I have observed;
what do I still lack?”
OBVIOUSLY TO THE YOUNG MAN-
EVEN HE KNOWS keeping the Commandments WAS NOT ENOUGH..
HE KNOWS HE NEEDED TO DO MORE
And JESUS than validates- THAT SOMETHING MORE IS REQUIRED....
OR he would have told the young man.."No you are good with obeying the Commandments I require..."
So that works against the Law
21 Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect,
go, sell what you possess and give to the poor,
and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”
22 When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful;
for he had great possessions.
The Commandments ALONE were not enough...
and as Far As Jesus was concerned...
Keeping the Passover...regardless of what day it is on...
Was not that important to him..anymore.
You need think about why Jesus conversed with this young man this way...
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.