Posted on 07/22/2022 5:11:12 PM PDT by Morgana
On April 18, 1521, Martin Luther was on trial and said “Here I stand, I can do no other, God help me”. At the risk of his life, he was standing for the truth of Ephesians 2:8-9, that we are saved by God’s grace alone and not by our good works.
What would Luther say if he could see today's Protestant churches? I believe he would cry out against “grace abuse.” Grace abuse says “Because we are saved by grace alone, we can live like the devil.” Luther would say that nothing could be further from the truth. Luther would agree with the Apostle Paul who wrote in Romans chapter 6 “Shall we continue in sin that grace might increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?”
I remember years ago when I discovered that the Lutheran hospital in Portland, Ore., was performing abortions. I wrote the Lutheran bishop in Oregon saying “How can we as a Christian hospital do such a thing?” The bishop responded “We in the Lutheran Church believe in the grace of God.” There it is, grace abuse … we are saved by grace, therefore we are free to kill unborn babies.
And it's gotten worse. The head bishop of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America recently went to the White House with other Protestant leaders to take a stand in favor of abortion rights. One ELCA Lutheran pastor even wrote this: “I love abortion, because abortion is healthcare … Any reason someone needs or wants an abortion is a good reason. You don't have to justify it to me or anyone. Free abortion. Accessible to all. On demand. Without apology. Now.” ...
(Excerpt) Read more at christianpost.com ...
Faithful Lutheran denominations that are PRO-LIFE include (but are not limited to):
LCMS (Lutheran Church – Missouri Synod, 1,800,000 members),
NALC (North American Lutheran Church, 142,000 members), and
WELS (Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod, 34,250 members).
Your entire post is inaccurate and mean-spirited.
There are several mentions of entire households being baptized.
Mark 1:4-5
John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. And all the country of Judea was going out to him, and all the people of Jerusalem; and they were being baptized by him in the Jordan River...
Acts 16:15
And when she and her household were baptized, she begged us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay.”
Acts 16:31
So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
1 Corinthians 1:16
Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas.
No, I got it completely right.
>> Your entire post is inaccurate and mean-spirited. <<
I actually articulated precisely why I criticized Luther, and praised many of his followers. How is that mean-spirited?
You referred to Luhter's perceived "piety and devotion, or his learning and erudition".
Sounds like you're describing a "good guy". Why would you describe a heretic apostate from the Catholic faith like that?
Why would you describe a heretic apostate from the Catholic faith like that?
God as ALWAYS used weak men for his purpose.
He might even use you.......................
Like Judas Iscariot, Caiphas and Pontius Pilate?
And Martin Luther?
God as ALWAYS used weak men for his purpose.
Like Judas Iscariot, Caiphas and Pontius Pilate?
And Martin Luther?
“You referred to Luhter’s perceived “piety and devotion, or his learning and erudition”.”
This is what I said:
“Intelligent Catholics care. Let me explain why. If you were not ignorant, you would know that plenty of Protestants still respect Luther and admire him whether as a rebel and revolutionary, or for what they take as his piety and devotion, or his learning and erudition.”
Notice that I said it was what Protestants “take” as his piety. It’s not me seeing him as pious and devout. It’s what Protestants see as his piety and devotion. You even admit that by say “perceived”. Yet, after admitting that it’s “perceived” - and by whom? obviously Protestants - you go on to state this little gem of intellectual dishonesty:
“Sounds like you’re describing a “good guy”. Why would you describe a heretic apostate from the Catholic faith like that?”
1) Stating that Luther was taken as pious and devout by Protestants does not mean in the slightest that I am “describing a ‘good guy’”. I am describing how (to use your own admitted term) Luther was “perceived” by Protestants.
2) That means I did not “describe a heretic apostate from the Catholic faith like that”.
3) You completely undercut what point you were trying to make by using the word “perceived” which corresponds with my own words “for what they take”.
4) You are so incapable of making a sound argument that you just restated what I said and apparently don’t realize how it vitiates the point you were trying to make!
This is nothing but a manifestation of the intellectual dishonesty shot through your posts.
Yes, and your Martin Luther is not in it.
As a matter of fact the heretic edited "his" bible and tossed out certain books to justify his heresies.
“Once again, dear readers, the ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church in America) is not THE Lutheran church — it is one of several, and it has become apostate.”
And who judges that it is apostate? Who has that authority?
By the way, add the Church of the Lutheran Confession to your list. Here’s the problem, those Lutheran sects you listed, and the CLC I just mentioned, hold each other at arm’s length often because they historically view each other as fallen away. Who judges that? Who has the authority?
I mean is WELS right or is the “Protes’tant Conference” right? No, that’s not a typo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protes%27tant_Conference
And one more point. None of these groups is really pro-life. They oppose abortions, usually, but not entirely. WELS, for instance, in it’s own statements is all for abortion when the life of the mother is threatened: https://wels.net/about-wels/what-we-believe/doctrinal-statements/abortion/ So WELS is all for baby killing sometimes. That’s not pro-life. That’s like saying the riot was mostly peaceful. You cannot be pro-life unless you entirely and always oppose abortion. Otherwise you’re just sometimes, or usually, against abortion, you’re not pro-life.
And I think you are a Protestant, from your posts.
“And I think you are a Protestant, from your posts.”
If you believe that, then you have serious issues. Seek professional help. After all, what Protestant would be talking about how to use some of Martin Luther’s beliefs to help convert Protestants to become Catholics?
Again, that’s just more intellectual dishonesty from you. I don’t believe for a second, and neither does anyone else here I bet, that you actually think I am a Protestant. But you’ll go that far, you’ll bear that false witness, because you can’t make an argument. How pathetic. And even though you have that on your soul, you’ll probably still receive the Eucharist today anyway. Wouldn’t that show how shallow your faith really is?
Stop posting private messages to me.
If you don’t have enough courage from the Holy Spirit to post to me here, don’t post to me at all. You obviously then have other issues to consider than posting to me.
Continuing to post to me in private when I have twice asked you to stop is a form of harassment. Stop doing it.
Do you read your Bible?
Yes, and your Martin Luther is not in it.
As a matter of fact the heretic edited “his” bible and tossed out certain books to justify his heresies.
Did God use Paul?
Did God use an imperfect Peter?
Was Luther wrong to challenge the church on the role of indulgences. Did the church need correction?
For one thing, your digs at his several mistakes implies that Lutherans worship or idolize Luther or his writings in entirety like a demigod, which is not the case; Luther was a reformer and a mortal human. Many of the reforms to which he objected have become enshrined in our church and de-emphasized in yours; and many of the criticisms you pointed out, however sensationally, have not. To say he would be cheering on the abortionists, and you stand behind that statement? Pitiable.
Secondly, slamming him as a man implies that no Catholic theologians were ever mistaken or prone to human error, which is also far from true. The Bible assures us that all fall short of the glory of God, and none of us is without sin. Take Augustine, for example. Should his early mistakes be held against his transcendent exegesis? I think not.
One of the core tenets of Lutheranism is "sola scriptura"-- the Bible is the inspired work of God and is our ultimate source of authority. Not being a Greek or Hebrew scholar myself, I am not going to argue the excluded books with you. But I point this out to emphasize one of the major reforms of Luther, which is to focus the minds of believers not upon the priest caste or the traditions of theologians who are also mere mortals, however inspired they may be, but on the canon that has come down to us from Moses, David, the prophets, and the Apostles.
God is the judge. His Word contains His laws, commandments and directives for how we are to live. So while the ELCA went woke, the largest orthodox Lutheran denomination, LCMS, remained solidly sola scriptura, believing the apostolic scriptures, and therefore remaining pro-life and pro-traditional marriage.
As for your complaints about the slip-sliding of some aspects of the other Lutheran denominations, I refer you to the "progressive" branches of the Catholic church who are campaigning for global political themes such as climate change, for female priests, for increased acceptance of gay and transgender behavior, or for pagan syncretism such as pacha mama— bishops in Germany, for one. The Pope in Rome, for another. Or how about the U.S. council of bishops who have been aiding and abetting the illegal invasion at the southern border, complete with its human trafficking, sex abuses of women and children, MS-13 criminality and drug cartels? Must every Catholic answer for those broken laws and venial sins? I personally think that would be unfair.
You're not likely to win hearts and minds, if that's what you're trying to do, by denouncing others' sincere beliefs. Many in the pews in all religions are only there out of habit, family ties, or ignorance of what their religion actually teaches today. More importantly, what Jesus Christ taught and teaches us daily through the workings of the Holy Spirit.
Others on this forum who are truly in the Word are not for the most part combative to those from other denominations, but rather cordial, secure in a degreee of denominational pluralism among Christians who have most of it right, and recognizing that none of us will have the whole Truth until we get to the other side.
“As a matter of fact the heretic edited “his” bible and tossed out certain books to justify his heresies. ”
He did no such thing.
The problem remains: who judges which Lutheran sects are really Lutheran let alone orthodox?
Last time I checked, WELS wouldn’t pray with LCMS or CLC.
You mentioned sola scriptura and the LCMS. It might surprise you to know the LCMS was secretly planning to meet with the Vatican some years ago to talk about reunification. I have no idea if it happened, but I knew the priest (former Lutheran minister) who helped opened the way for that overture.
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