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Locked on 04/24/2022 5:40:39 AM PDT by Religion Moderator, reason:
Childishness |
Posted on 03/06/2022 11:16:06 AM PST by CharlesOConnell
A man commits a serious crime, then he gets released. He has "paid his debt to society". But wait a minute, he's only ready for the half-way house. He's unlikely to get a prestigious job in his new prison suit coat, or any job at all; he has civil impediments, he can't vote or hold certain offices. His crime was serious enough that he won't be presumed to have been completely rehabilitated until he performs a notable service to society, or at least spends many years on the straight and narrow, so that his crime can be truly overlooked or forgotten.
In Catholic faith, your "debt to society" is paid by Jesus Christ on Calvary. It's called "eternal punishment", without Christ it keeps you from going to heaven. Supposing that you do take advantage of His sacrifice, you're truly sorry, have a firm purpose of amendment, if you relapse, you go again for forgiveness (to the Sacrament of Confession).
But your sin leaves a strong trace at another layer of impurity called "temporal punishment due to sin", like the civil impediments facing the half-way house prisoner. Because "nothing impure can enter heaven", there is a place or a state, a condition of purification to render you fit for heaven after Christ has finally saved you from hell. The Catholic Church calls it purgatory.
(Where is it in the bible? Where is the word Trinity in the bible? Where does it say that you only need a personal relationship with Jesus Christ? Many valid principles aren't stated explicitly in the bible, but it does say to "hold fast to the traditions you have learned, whether by word or by letter", because much of the Gospel wasn't written down, as Jesus only wrote in the sand, the majority of the Gospel was taught from word to ear to people who couldn't afford expensive books, the exceptions were what tended to get written down. But the implication that there is a purgatory, is contained in the bible--see the comments.)
The ex-con can receive a pardon or commutation of his probation from a Governor, if he performs some heroic deed, saving numerous lives, or, like Chuck Colson, performs a long-lasting, valuable community service helping numerous people who can't help themselves.
In the Catholic Church there are 2 ways for the residual, temporal effects due to sin to be expiated: suffering in this life, or after life, undergoing purifying suffering along with other people who will finally be saved, but have to suffer for long without the vision of God--that is what causes them their pain.
Their suffering isn't meritorious enough to grant their release, the saints in heaven and those on earth suffering and practicing virtue can pray for the suffering souls in purgatory. In no way is their release by slow transfer of suffering or practice of virtue, "buying heaven". It's a long, excruciating process.
How the misunderstanding arose that Catholics think they can buy their way into heaven, is involved with history more than 500 years old. For a millennium of Christendom between roughly 410 and 1410, there was a Medieval civilization with harmony between faith and government.
Many small farmers would cluster around the manor house of a military lord who would protect them, in exchange for a certain fixed obligation of labor and agricultural produce. In most cases, those "serfs" had much more leisure than factory workers of the industrial revolution; there were a large number of holy days without work, and except for planting and harvesting, there were long stretches of idle time.
Another large sector of the economy surrounded monasteries, where the monks developed most of the farming practices that stabilized the serfs and their manorial lords. The monks who worked those monastic lands were sworn to poverty, so that monasteries built up large accumulations of economic value over decades and centuries of labor.
At the beginning, when lands were being cleared and put into production there weren't prominent town fairs ruled by merchants and bankers. Money wasn't used for sustenance, not even much barter occurred, life was mostly agrarian.
Charity was woven into the economy of monasteries. It was estimated that you only need travel 12 miles in medieval England between monasteries, where you could get a meal and minimal lodging for free, based on need. And the charity was also spiritual, including the ancient Catholic principle of prayer for the dead, which is biblical. (See "prayer for the dead" in the original King James Bible in the comment.)
There were foundations and benefices for praying for the dead, that allowed a person of means to support monasteries' charitable works, and in proportional response the monks would pray for the souls of the donors.
It happened at the close of the middle ages, that militarily strong nobles cast their eyes on the labor value accumulated by the poverty-sworn monks of the monasteries, which those nobles perceived as monetary wealth, especially where gold and jewels had been donated by the devout to adorn churches.
(Protestant writer William Cobbett wrote in his 1824 "A History of the Protestant Reformation in England and Ireland", an anecdote, that an incredibly valuable, hand illustrated bible was stripped of it's bejeweled, gold cover, the much more valuable hand-illumined manuscript, thrown in the mud and trampled by horses hooves by raiders suppressing the monasteries in Henry VIII's England.)
A new religion growing up around this seizure of monastic lands and valuables, that sought to discredit the Catholic Church, spread the black legend that the "sale of indulgences" was abusive. But this was very exceptional. Today the stipend of a Mass said for the dead is $10.
Catholics have hope but not assurance.
Born again believers have assurance that GOD gives to us and He tells us in His word that we can have it
Hebrews 11:1-2 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the people of old received their commendation.
1 John 5:13-15 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life. And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us. And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests that we have asked of him.
Remember this- if you remember nothing at all in this reply - Those first two in the Garden, also valued- AND desired - Assurance - more than they did Trusting and Obeying in God.
Where’d that unscriptural claptrap come from?
God was not pleased…
Your god never is.
You all only think of sin in regards to keeping or losing salvation, with the claim that we think you can sin with impunity with no CONSEQUENCES, which is another completely false belief.
A believer’s sin breaks the intimate fellowship one has with God and grieves the Holy Spirit, by whom we are sealed until the day of redemption. It destroys relationships here on earth and smears the good name of Jesus.
There are CONSEQUECES and then there are PENALTIES that I keep hearing about, that no one seems to be able to explain (penalty).
Paul says eternal DEATH is the PENALTY for continued, willful sin after grace. Believing otherwise is fantasy.
Hebrews 10:
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Interesting claim.
How do you know this?
Keep asking.
I'm waiting for MY questions to get answered first.
No, no, no. Paul committed murder. According to your own words, he can’t have salvation with that sin on his soul.
Unless, of course, God forgives sins.
But according to you, there are many sins that are unforgivable if someone commits them.
Care to correct your analysis?
How DARE you point thaT OUT!
How about accidental or unknown sin?
You sure that it ain't hope?
Catholic_Wannabe_Dude(Hail Mary!)
I know. Definitely makes me a cultist.
I believe my response addressed your ‘questions’. I am not in the mood to play starightman to your pharisaic game. I take uyour refusal to answer as a show of disbelief. Thanks, but not into games. Have nice day
Battle of the Three False Theologies Placemarker
Gentlemen, forgive my interruption. I understand if you say it’s not my business.
Is this worth getting angry at each other over? I don’t see any theology that could lead to denial of salvation as far as I can tell. Perhaps we could agree to disagree for the moment, for the sake of not falling into unrighteous anger?
Is accidental sin, willful? Regardless, ask forgiveness and repent. Then ask the Holy Spirit for strength in resisting and overcoming (that) sin.
Unknown sin? Such as? Unknown to you, ever? never to be revealed to you? Maybe something like a sin, that everyone keeps telling you isn’t a sin, and you keep doing it, until you find out it’s actually a sin? Or, as one grows in their spiritual life, they discover that X conduct was in fact sinful? Same remedy as above I would imagine.
If you think there’s anything I missed here, please feel free to comment.
why do you keep thinking that everyone’s angry all the time?
Believe all you want, but I know it did not.
So, getting to your last conditional sentence containing a question at the end: "...where are those spirits coming from?" Indeed; WHERE are they? Are they SLEEPING in their graves, as the Scriptures indicate, or are they awake and alive somewhere in heaven right now with Jesus? Shall they RISE from their graves or DESCEND from heaven? |
One of us is not angry.
Lord; if I missed anything; I repent of those; too.
LOL
I think we both know that the topic under discussion doesn’t matter too much in the plan of salvation; but it is a break from counting them dancing angels all the time.
I don’t see any theology that could lead to denial of salvation as far as I can tell.
Not True: God told Adam and Eve not to touch the tree or eat the fruit from the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil (the tree in the middle of the garden). It was a test of obedience. One of the lies Satan convinced them of was that they would not die (and that they would be as gods, knowing good and evil). MHGinTN is CLEARLY repeating Satan’s lie, as I pointed out in post 836. It all ties in to the greatest lie ever told, which is OSAS/sin is for the unsaved suckers but I’m immune to it... That one is going to cause many Christians to lose their salvation.
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