Catholics Don't Believe You Can Earn Your Way to Heaven

Tradition | 03-06-2022 | CharlesOconnell

[CharlesOConnell]

A man commits a serious crime, then he gets released. He has "paid his debt to society". But wait a minute, he's only ready for the half-way house. He's unlikely to get a prestigious job in his new prison suit coat, or any job at all; he has civil impediments, he can't vote or hold certain offices. His crime was serious enough that he won't be presumed to have been completely rehabilitated until he performs a notable service to society, or at least spends many years on the straight and narrow, so that his crime can be truly overlooked or forgotten.

In Catholic faith, your "debt to society" is paid by Jesus Christ on Calvary. It's called "eternal punishment", without Christ it keeps you from going to heaven. Supposing that you do take advantage of His sacrifice, you're truly sorry, have a firm purpose of amendment, if you relapse, you go again for forgiveness (to the Sacrament of Confession).

But your sin leaves a strong trace at another layer of impurity called "temporal punishment due to sin", like the civil impediments facing the half-way house prisoner. Because "nothing impure can enter heaven", there is a place or a state, a condition of purification to render you fit for heaven after Christ has finally saved you from hell. The Catholic Church calls it purgatory.

(Where is it in the bible? Where is the word Trinity in the bible? Where does it say that you only need a personal relationship with Jesus Christ? Many valid principles aren't stated explicitly in the bible, but it does say to "hold fast to the traditions you have learned, whether by word or by letter", because much of the Gospel wasn't written down, as Jesus only wrote in the sand, the majority of the Gospel was taught from word to ear to people who couldn't afford expensive books, the exceptions were what tended to get written down. But the implication that there is a purgatory, is contained in the bible--see the comments.)

The ex-con can receive a pardon or commutation of his probation from a Governor, if he performs some heroic deed, saving numerous lives, or, like Chuck Colson, performs a long-lasting, valuable community service helping numerous people who can't help themselves.

In the Catholic Church there are 2 ways for the residual, temporal effects due to sin to be expiated: suffering in this life, or after life, undergoing purifying suffering along with other people who will finally be saved, but have to suffer for long without the vision of God--that is what causes them their pain.

Their suffering isn't meritorious enough to grant their release, the saints in heaven and those on earth suffering and practicing virtue can pray for the suffering souls in purgatory. In no way is their release by slow transfer of suffering or practice of virtue, "buying heaven". It's a long, excruciating process.

How the misunderstanding arose that Catholics think they can buy their way into heaven, is involved with history more than 500 years old. For a millennium of Christendom between roughly 410 and 1410, there was a Medieval civilization with harmony between faith and government.

Many small farmers would cluster around the manor house of a military lord who would protect them, in exchange for a certain fixed obligation of labor and agricultural produce. In most cases, those "serfs" had much more leisure than factory workers of the industrial revolution; there were a large number of holy days without work, and except for planting and harvesting, there were long stretches of idle time.

Another large sector of the economy surrounded monasteries, where the monks developed most of the farming practices that stabilized the serfs and their manorial lords. The monks who worked those monastic lands were sworn to poverty, so that monasteries built up large accumulations of economic value over decades and centuries of labor.

At the beginning, when lands were being cleared and put into production there weren't prominent town fairs ruled by merchants and bankers. Money wasn't used for sustenance, not even much barter occurred, life was mostly agrarian.

Charity was woven into the economy of monasteries. It was estimated that you only need travel 12 miles in medieval England between monasteries, where you could get a meal and minimal lodging for free, based on need. And the charity was also spiritual, including the ancient Catholic principle of prayer for the dead, which is biblical. (See "prayer for the dead" in the original King James Bible in the comment.)

There were foundations and benefices for praying for the dead, that allowed a person of means to support monasteries' charitable works, and in proportional response the monks would pray for the souls of the donors.

It happened at the close of the middle ages, that militarily strong nobles cast their eyes on the labor value accumulated by the poverty-sworn monks of the monasteries, which those nobles perceived as monetary wealth, especially where gold and jewels had been donated by the devout to adorn churches.

(Protestant writer William Cobbett wrote in his 1824 "A History of the Protestant Reformation in England and Ireland", an anecdote, that an incredibly valuable, hand illustrated bible was stripped of it's bejeweled, gold cover, the much more valuable hand-illumined manuscript, thrown in the mud and trampled by horses hooves by raiders suppressing the monasteries in Henry VIII's England.)

A new religion growing up around this seizure of monastic lands and valuables, that sought to discredit the Catholic Church, spread the black legend that the "sale of indulgences" was abusive. But this was very exceptional. Today the stipend of a Mass said for the dead is $10.

[Elsie]

Your imagination runneth away.

And yours just ignores the fact of all these splits in the church that Joseph Smith claimed to hold together?

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Sorry, but even MY imagination is not that good.

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I held it together...

 

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Do you realize WHEN he made that statement?

Joseph Smith, Jr.’s statement that he was ”the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam.” was made on Sunday, May 26, 1844.

It’s found in the History of the Church Vol. 6, p. 408-412.

By May 26, 1844, the Pure Church of Christ (1831), the Independent Church (1832), the Church of Christ (Boothite) (1836), the Church of Christ (Parrishite) (1837), the Alston Church (1839), the Church of Christ (Chubbyite) (late 1830s), the Church of Jesus Christ, the Bride, the Lamb’s Wife (1840), and the Church of Christ (Pageite) (1842), had already split from Joseph Smith’s Church (which was known as the Church of Christ from 1830 to 1834, the Church of the Latter Day Saints (no hyphen) from 1834 to 1838, and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (no hyphen) until 1844).  I don’t understand how that is ‘keep[ing] a whole church together.”

 

Ironically, the May 26, 1844, is the speech Joseph Smith. Jr. gave after William Law testified before a grand jury that Smith was committing polygamy. Law also claimed that Smith had made several proposals to Law’s wife Jane, under the premise that Jane Law would enter a polyandrous marriage with Smith. In his May 25, 1844 speech, Smith also said “What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one.” At the time he claimed to have but one wife, Smith had at least 34 wives.

Of course, Law was excommunicated from the Church and eventually was a publisher of the Nauvoo Expositor, which publicly accused Smith of

(a) corrupting young women by coercing them into plural marriage,

(b) being a fallen prophet by engaging in polygamy, and

(c) desiring to establish a theocracy.

 

 Smith’s order that the Nauvoo printing press be destroyed and the type be pied eventually led to his arrest and death in Carthage (the charge of treason against Smith was unrelated to destruction of the newspaper and arose from Smith declaring martial law and calling out his personal militia, the Nauvoo Legion).

Amazing. At the time he made that statement, a lot of sub-cults had already broken away. And he made that statement during the same speech when he lied about having more than one wife - the speech that set William Law on his course to publishing the Nauvoo Expositor . . . and Smith on his course to his death, firing that pepperbox pistol and killing two people on the way.

[Elsie]

Get people off the inspired Scriptural truth and onto the "it could've happened that way" muddy ground.

HEY!

The Catholics think it's working for them; so why not!?

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[wita]

I wonder just what Jesus meant when He cried out, “It is finished.”?

I suggest you wonder way too much.

He was definitely not talking about “his work”, as that was not finished. He suffered and died for our sins. That part was finished.

[imardmd1]

I found this devotional online that addresses the sinning while being a Christian issue. It very clearly addresses misrepresentation of Christian beliefs that assurance of salvation and the security of the believer is a license to sin.

Your post here is well put to give in exquiste unassailable details of what having salvation and oneself knowing beyond question that one is saved by faith alone in the person and works of Christ alone has one visible mark seen by all, and that is the other side of the same coin, and that is the 180 degree change of mind of the one exercising that permanent abiding faith, called "repentance."

One who has been scripturally warned, but thinks that as an infant he/she was saved from perdition, thinks he/she need not change one's mind about one's status with God, thinks one can keep in a lifestyle of habitually repeated sins yet from time to time confess the same ones to a cleric (who has no authority to remit any except those done to him) and not to God--that person most likely has never experienced the life-changing repentance arising from a changed belief; and thus cannot be assured of salvation, because he/she simply cannot obtain it from the religion that he/she has been persuaded to have a strong but false confidence in.

It is exactly such a person who thinks he/she is "Christian" but keeps on showing the world by a lifestyle that he/she is not, but wrongly condemns others not of the same cult for.

It is just such conduct and guiltiness that members of that cult project on "Protestants" who can truly KNOW that they are saved and engaged in progressive sanctification from a basis of belief, changed mind, irrevocable salvation, and justification, with the imputed righteousness due to a child of he Heavenly Father.

Until those cultists admit their standing as condemned depraved ill-catechized descendants of Adam still having Satan their master, there can be no salvation, let alone assurance of it.

That is the negative side of believing in a false religion with false doctrines, and false prophets preaching them without cessation.

The invitation to such lost but ignorant souls is that of Jesus, the Friend of depraved sinners like as I have been until chastened by The Father of our Savior:

²⁷"All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
  ²⁸Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
  ²⁹Take my yoke upon you, and learn of^{ἀπό = from} me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 
³⁰For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light" (Mt. 11:27-30 AV; bolding added for emphasis). 

May someone's spiritual blindness be removed by the meditation you have labored to present. Your effort in this is the undertaking of the "light burden" that Jesus requests of His true disciple-FRiends. May our Heavenly Father bless both you and we the diligent readers, my dear metmom.

[daniel1212]

"And you can murder someone if you "are not under the law" and still stand before God and get your rewards. That's FALSE Gospel Heresy."

In context, while Christians are not "under the Law" of even the 10 Commandments for salvation, as meaning obtaining salvation on the basis of the merit of their law keeping, and as meaning under the Mosiac covenant which requires literal observance of everything enjoined therein, including those regarding "meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation" (Hebrews 9:10) and thus being almost constantly unclean at least until the evening, as even marital relations rendered the couple (Leviticus 15:16) and in need of sacrifices for sin;

Yet faith in the risen Lord Christ who loves righteousness, and hates iniquity (Hebrews 1:9) who alone perfectly fulfilled the Law in its full intent and is the supreme standard for righteousness and means obedience to Him by those who are accounted righteous on His account versus under the covenant of law. (Romans 4:5; 10:4) And which believers are thus enabled and rightly motivated to practically "follow after righteousness, Godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness." (1 Timothy 6:11) "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4)

The error in regard to this issue is basically,

1. That of presuming that the and practical effect of faith, which immediate effect is a holiness of heart (Gal. 4:6) is the Cause of justification, which is the Catholic error (the actual act of baptism being imagined to effect regeneration, and even by proxy faith, with infused charity rendering one good enough to directly go to be with God, but which results in RC (not typically EO) Purgatory when the subject realizes his sinful nature is still quite alive).

2. That of presuming that the and practical effect of faith of the heart unto positional righteousness (Romans 4:5; 10:10) and salvific acceptance with God, (Eph. 1:6) which effect is holiness of heart (Gal. 4:6) and life and which is to be progressive, (Romans 6:16,17) - versus salvation and obedience as being under the covenant of Law (Galatians 3:23-27) means that in effect then justifying faith can be divorced from obedience, but which would not be justifying, Abrahamic type faith which is imputed for righteousness.

Meaning that like as all that we do is a result of what we truly believe - at least at the moment even if contrary to what we profess - so also the nature faith which is imputed for righteousness is that which results in the "obedience of faith" which formally is to normally begin with confessing the Lord Jesus in baptism (which is confession in body language) and onward.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (John 10:27-28)

For the redeemed are those who come to God as sinners knowing their desperate need of salvation - not as souls saved by their works or religious heritage but as destitute of any means or merit whereby they may find salvation (Romans 3:9 - 5:1) - and with a humble and penitent heart (that wants a new life following Christ, the Divine Son of God http://peacebyjesus.net/deityofchrist.html) believe on the crucified and risen Lord Jesus who alone can save them on His account, by His sinless shed blood and righteousness. And who thus are baptized and follow Him (John 10:27-29; Acts 8:12; Ephesians 1:7; 2:8-10) - and effectually repent when they find that they failed to do so. (Psalms 32:5,6; 51:3; Hosea 5:15; 1 John 1:9)

Such souls are of penitent, heart-purifying, regenerating effectual faith, (Acts 10:43-47; 15:7-9) which is imputed for righteousness, (Romans 4:5) and is shown in baptism and following the Lord, (Acts 2:38-47; Jn. 10:27,28) and by which faith the believer is completely forgiven and "accepted in the Beloved" and positionally seated with Him in Heaven. Ephesians 1:6; 2:6; cf. Phil. 3:21) And wherever Scripture clearly speak of the next conscious reality for those who die in that effectual faith then it is with the Lord, at death or His return (whatever comes first), by the grace of God. (Lk. 23:43 [cf. 2Cor. 12:4; Rv. 2:7]; Phil 1:23; 2Cor. 5:8 [“we”]; 1Cor. 15:51ff'; 1Thess. 4:17)

Which is in contrast to those who do not accordingly believe in the crucified and risen Lord Jesus, (Romans 10:9,10) including those who terminally fall from grace, impenitently departing from the faith, drawing back unto perdition, making Christ of no effect, to no profit. (Gal. 5:1-4; Heb. 3:12; 10:38)

And which is not that of meriting or keeping salvation by works, but that of choosing to do what we first did by the grace of God (meaning the sinner does what he/she otherwise would not and could not do, but God provided salvation and grants repentant faith and works in us to obey), that of believing. Thus it is evident faith which identfies a believer, and persevering in faith is exhorted, versus denying the faith.

Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father; Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. (1 Thessalonians 1:3-4)

But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. (Hebrews 6:8-10)

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. (Hebrews 3:12-13)

[metmom]

That devotional was not my work although I agree with it. I just found it online and posted it

[MHGinTN]

I ask again, do you believe we have a body, a soul or behavior mechanism, AND a spirit?

I add, do you believe the Word of God is powerful, more powerful than any two-edged sword?

Do you believe GOD separates the soul and spuirit when a person is born from above?

Do you believe God abides in the born again spirit? If you answer those questions for your reasoning self, we can discuss the passage in 1 Thes 4 further. Until you settle those issues you are not going to 'get it' that God brings WITH JESUS the spirits of those who have died in Christ.

HE brings those spirits with Jesus so THEY can receive their new glorified body and behavior mechanism AT THE EARTH. We who are alive and remain are given a glorified body and soul at the same time the dead in Christ receive theirs. THEN we are all caught up (the alive and transformed catching up with the dead in Christ who rise first) together into the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

God tells us that He abides in the spirit of the redeemed and will never leave us or forsake us in that Presence. The Rapture reunites a spirit with a body and soul, a NEW Glorified body and soul, removing us and them from this plane of reality for the trip to the Father's House.

[imardmd1]

That devotional was not my work although I agree with it. I just found it online and posted it

But it takes more than a dilettante to keep on continually gathering and promoting articles based on the true Gospel of the Christ-earned gift of freedom from the penalty and power of Satan and the devilish tools of sin and death. Not many people that I know have exercised the persistence through earthly challenges that you have, and I respect it as an example for others as a God-blessed assignment of your energy in the distributing of such information.

[MHGinTN]

Amen ... her work blesses us greatly.

[Philsworld]

https://www.adventist.org/death-and-resurrection/what-is-your-soul-according-to-the-bible/

According to the Bible, the soul and the spirit work together. A person’s “spirit” is his or her life force. This refers to the breath of life God breathed into Adam (Genesis 2:7), and into each of us.

This life force comes from God (Isaiah 42:5) and goes back to Him when we die (Ecclesiastes 12:7; Psalm 104:29; Acts 7:59).

But at no point does the spirit do anything of its own power, such as the way many stories portray a ghost of someone after they die. This life force connects the body and makes the soul, and the soul without the life force is dead.

Again,

Physical Body + Breath of Life from God = Human Soul

Eccl 12:7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

[MurphsLaw]

So you’re telling me that the Apostle Paul is in Hell right now? Filthy heretic.

Your thinking is emotional here, not critical.
NO ONE on earth BINDS GOD to anything. God has infinite Mercy we cannot begin to understand. ALL judgement is left to God. It’s not for me- or for you - to decide before God’s Judgement on “who is or is not in hell.”

Though, why would any Christian feel St. Paul was destined to be in Hell?
HE WAS BAPTIZED… and kept the Faith to the end.
What could you be possibly referring to?
Because he persecuted, and was involved with the killing of Christians (Stephen)?

Is that your point?
St. Paul’s sins were Forgiven him, at his regenerative Baptismal conversion, through the Blood of the Cross.

[Philsworld]

God tells us that He abides in the spirit of the redeemed and will never leave us or forsake us in that Presence

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Unless you stop abiding in Him, that is...

John 15:

1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. 9As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

[Philsworld]

God tells us that He abides in the spirit of the redeemed?

God abides in the “spirit of the redeemed”?
God abides in the Holy Spirit, of the redeemed? (that wouldn’t make sense because the “Holy Spirit” is God)

The “Holy Spirit” abides in the believer.

[Philsworld]

Do you believe God abides in the born again spirit?

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Born again in the Spirit
Born again of the Spirit

NOT “a” born again spirit.

Born again humans are not spirits. The Holy Spirit resides in us. We are born OF THE SPIRIT.

John 3:6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

[MurphsLaw]

And you can murder someone if you "are not under the law" and still stand before God and get your rewards. That's FALSE Gospel Heresy.

It’s also a completely false accusation.

Romans 6:1-14 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?...
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

Now you can stop spreading misrepresentations of what Christians believe since you have been shown to be wrong in your accusations about Christian belief.

It is a very demonic idea now isn’t it? – to willingly sin under the gift of God’s Grace?
Think for a moment – if you were to commit a mortal sin- Ok maybe not murder- Would you not think – “No worries, I’m not under those laws anymore- just Grace”. Can you imagine what kind of lifestyle this could lead to? We are all flawed humans. This idea of a “no-fault” theory has the power to become sinful practice.
The Bible constantly warns of this.. often.
A rule of faith that would allow one who has been given Grace to sin, to employ that Grace to fall into sinfulness- even to excuse it in a way- is harmful to the soul. How often can we sin then under Grace? Which sins can we, or can't we commit under Grace? Do you see the problem here?

IT’s NOT A FALSE ACCUSATION.
This has been the precept of the Once Saved Always religiosity from the beginning- which is what is False. And it has been false ever since Martin Luther claimed:

“Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly; who is the victor over sin, death and the world. While we commit sins while we are here, for this is not a place where justice resides… NO SIN can separate us from Him- EVEN IF we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day.””
Dr. Martin Luther’s Saemmtliche Schriften, Letter No.99- Aug. 1521

This is the thinking of the “Father” of Once Saved, always saved, and such a demonic idea of sinning under Grace in an allowable fashion..
I understand you are too vested in this faith too see clearly- but it’s NOT a false accusation. This is the genesis of the doctrines that keep evolving and dividing.
What is “false” - is for you to say what I am saying is false - to say “it is a false accusation”. I think you reject this idea of Luther's but have insulated yourself from this with other faulty, less bombastic doctrine.

The evidence is out there. Now your particular sect may not believe exactly the same as another, but I am not inclined to parse through hundreds of faith beliefs and denominations to keep all the players straight. Sorry that it seems like generalizing- but to me its all the same, from the same root.
There are videos of this very same idea by modern day false teachers on the web. A Steven Anderson comes to mind parroting this false theology. He says no doubt the "saved" murderer will get his civil justice penalty dealt him on Earth- but he will stand before God just the same as anyone else. I hope you don't agree with him. I am sure there are others.. Not being under the law, means just that to these people.
I'm not making this up.
This is where American Christianity is going.

Then there are those I’ve seen as well, claiming Luther’s apostasy for their own. John McArthur even can be found saying “Grace forgives, Grace Forgives, Grace Forgives…” “and that NO SIN can separate us from our Salvation”. NO sin.
Grace forgives - so there is no need to even repent… and you can’t anyways , because to repent would be to contradict and violate this idea that No Sin can harm us- Christ’s blood was sufficient – nothing more is needed. What a diabolical way to treat sinfulness… which again I remind you the NT talks about sin and it’s nature- twice as much as Salvation. And it speaks nothing of Once saved, Always saved.
What was the job of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost? To Forgive sins- not to ignore them.

Now obviously most preachers today are not going to say something as graphic as what you take offense to. Some do. How can you not see that the logical conclusion to "NO SIN can deprive us of our “reward”- means anything goes. It fails badly. This is known as a: reductio ad absurdum.
And it's what's wrong with Christianity today- a re-characterizing the focus of sin.
As absurd as it can get, for those under this falseness it is absolutely necessary to perpetuate this nonsensical position in order to give an appearance of integrity and, falsely, of some “truth” - for this false doctrine of OSAS.

But that’s really all yesterday’s news, isn’t it?… now for the real fun part…

Do you think satan would be for or against this notion of writing off sin after one is Saved? Do you think more sin- or less sin is favorable to him?
To avoid this demonic apostasy of believing no sin could ever possibly cause you to lose your salvation, this lie is compounded today by another modern falsehood called: “Notsofastism”.
Though one has to admit, this one is pretty clever on it’s surface - until it is examined. “Notsofastism” devised in the new fangled Christianity of today, affirms that the once-thought of “saved believer “ who may commit a mortal or heinous crime, or falls back into sin…obviously now “WAS NEVER SAVED TO BEGIN WITH- in the first place”. Bummer.

Now that is an attractive catch- all patch job that cures many things that could ail one.
Forget about any thought of Mercy, Trust, and Redemption- nope - you just weren’t saved proper in the first place.
Someone could have been a Pastor for years even- gets caught in some sinful things- or worse, maybe even converts to Catholicism - though with this new understanding – the left behin “true” believers can rest assured the fallen sinner was never saved to begin with it.

So now we compound the OSAS error in forcing the notion to accept that God would allow - even our own family, our children- that they could be living in this “maybe” saved state until the one day they were not- until that temptation won over -
But yet we could never know if they had been saved right in the first place- so it follows we could not even know to help then while under a false "pretense" of being saved - and committing the sins that one wished.
In that dynamic-
One can only assume then, that they really seem to be saved... until they're not

How diabolical is that theology if it were true? Fortunately for us, It’s not.


It’s false Gospel. I’ve watched someone named Piper, RC Sproul, the name Stanley comes to mind, many others in videos publicly spouting this heresy of “not being Saved in the first place of those falling into sin – these men confidently and spiritually advertising this false gospel- this false RE-assurance.
Its evil and you have to believe satan is behind these false teachers in his desire to promote sin, which is the tool to split and divide. Oddly, today’s “house divided” Gospel speaks exactly to this demonic. So then - I can ask to I am blue to the face- “How would one then- for sure- when they answered the call – KNOW that they are truly saved for the rest of their life”?
There is no answer to that. The word fallacious comes to mind to describe that assurance.
We will only know on judgement day. If you love God, keep his commandments- Love your neighbor- confess and repent – DO those things Christ has asked from us…keep the Faith until your end. In that, you can trust God, and have Hope.
And the greatest of those is Charity.
Yes PAUL SAYS Charity is even GREATER THAN FAITH.

I know this was not easy to read. I know your mind in unchangeable. I’ve been a little tough here, wish it otherwise, and will confess that- but promoting these falsehoods onto the unsuspecting readers is something I can’t abide. Using this premise to constantly devalue other Faiths is incorrect.
I said before- If it works for you… great. More power to you.

We have Hope, not assurance.
Remember this- if you remember nothing at all in this reply -

Those first two in the Garden, also valued- AND desired - Assurance - more than they did Trusting and Obeying in God.

God was not pleased…

[Philsworld]

Until you settle those issues you are not going to ‘get it’ that God brings WITH JESUS the spirits of those who have died in Christ.

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Not at all biblical. That would mean that said person would never die (human on earth, born again of the Spirit, back to heaven as a bodiless Spirit, then back to earth to reunite Spirit and body..life chain unbroken). If one believes that, they are believing the first lie ever told to a human by none other than Satan himself. “You shall not surely die”

[Philsworld]

Romans 6:1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

And what happens to those who do continue in sin (willfully), DESPITE THE SPIRIT OF GRACE?

Hebrews 10:
26For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

We are warned by Paul not to CONTINUE IN WILLFULL SIN after grace, and he tell us EXACTLY what will happen if we do not repent (and stop).

OSAS is probably the greatest lie Satan ever spread. The PTR is a close second.

[Philsworld]

Romans 6: 14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

It is clearly obvious that you don’t understand these verses. You (all) seem to think that grace precludes you from the effects of sin, or losing your salvation. Nothing could be further from the truth.

NOT UNDER THE LAW. Literally, “not under law.” The definite article “the” is not used with either “law” or “grace” (see on ch. 2:12). Paul is not referring here primarily to any law in particular but to law as a principle. His point is that Christians are not under law as a way of salvation, but under grace. Law cannot save a sinner, nor can law put an end to sin or its dominion. Law reveals sin (ch. 3:20), and because of the sinfulness of man, law, as it were, causes transgression to increase (ch. 5:20). Law cannot forgive sin, nor can law provide any power to overcome it. The sinner who seeks to be saved under law will find only condemnation and deeper enslavement to sin. Wherever the principle is held that man can save himself by his own works, there is no effective barrier against sin (DA 35, 36).

But the Christian does not look for salvation legalistically, as if he could be saved by his own works of obedience (ch. 3:20, 28). He acknowledges that he is a transgressor of the divine law, that in his own strength he is wholly incapable of fulfilling its requirements, that he justly deserves to be under its condemnation, and surrenders himself through faith in Christ to the grace and mercy of God. Then, by the grace of God (see on v. 24), his sinful past is forgiven and he receives divine power to walk in newness of life. When a man is “under law,” despite his best efforts sin continues to have dominion over him, because the law cannot set him free from the power of sin. Under grace, however, the struggle against sin is no longer a forlorn hope, but a certain triumph.

The offer to be under grace, thus to have victory over sin, and the enabling power for the attainment of every virtue, have been extended to every one of the descendants of Adam (John 3:16). But many have blindly or stubbornly chosen to remain under law. Even many who profess an earnest desire to be saved prefer to remain under law, as if they could commend themselves to God and earn salvation by their own obedience to law. Such was the experience of the Jews, and such is the experience of many professed Christians today, who in their pride of self-righteousness are not willing to acknowledge their own helplessness and to surrender themselves wholly to the mercy and transforming grace of God.

Paul is saying that as long as a man is under law he remains also under the dominion of sin, for law cannot save one from either the condemnation or the power of sin. But those who are under grace receive not only release from condemnation (Rom. 8:1) but also power to overcome (ch. 6:4). Thus sin no longer will have dominion over them.

SDA bible commentary

[Philsworld]

15. SHALL WE SIN? See on v. 1. The form of the Greek verb may suggest the occasional act of sin, as compared with the continuing in a life of sin of v. 1. May we indulge ourselves in sin once in a while now that we are not under law but under grace? Paul’s answer is that any indulgence in sin is a return to that bondage to sin from which grace has released the sinner.

To suppose that being under grace means that the believer is now at liberty to disobey the moral law of God with impunity is to misunderstand completely God’s whole purpose in the plan of salvation. It was man’s violation of God’s law in the first place that caused God in His love to offer grace to the sinner. By the grace of God man is released from sin’s rule. How then can anyone conceive it to be right or reasonable deliberately to place himself back in the old bondage? To disobey God’s law is to become once again the servant of sin, for disobedience to divine law is sin (1 John 3:4), and whoever goes on sinning is the servant of sin (John 8:34). To continue in the indulgence of sin after accepting the pardoning and transforming grace of God is to deny the very purpose of that grace. Whoever refuses to allow the grace of God to bring him into more and more perfect obedience to divine law is rejecting grace itself and thereby turning his back on freedom and salvation.

God forbid!

OSAS is a lie.

[metmom]

*sigh*

You all only think of sin in regards to keeping or losing salvation, with the claim that we think you can sin with impunity with no consequences, which is another completely false belief.

A believer’s sin breaks the intimate fellowship one has with God and grieves the Holy Spirit, by whom we are sealed until the day of redemption. It destroys relationships here on earth and smears the good name of Jesus.

But the big thing Catholics fail to grasp is that God does not just sit passively by watching His born again child sin. He doesn’t save us and then abandon us to sink or swim on our own. He is actively working in our lives every moment of every day to conform us into the likeness of Jesus.

And that means that He actively works to deliver His children from sin. He brings conviction on them for it. He often lets them bear the consequences of their bad decisions. He disciplines them.

But He does NOT sit up there in heaven watching us bumble along waiting to zap us with the loss of our salvation when we do happen to sin, even deliberately.

Paul addresses the fact that if a believer persists in sin, God may even cut his life short so as to save him from any possibility of abandoning or losing his salvation.

This seems to be news to Catholics, but God really, truly does WANT to save us and works actively towards that end.

But the god presented by Catholicism is a stingy, judgmental, unforgiving, capricious tyrant who us waits for us to mess up so he can zap us and send us to hell. And to avoid that, Catholicism teaches that one must beg and grovel and do all kinds of religious activities to earn, aka merit, God’s grace.

What an atrocious, lopsided image of God presented to the world in light of what Jesus taught us the Father is like.