A man commits a serious crime, then he gets released. He has "paid his debt to society". But wait a minute, he's only ready for the half-way house. He's unlikely to get a prestigious job in his new prison suit coat, or any job at all; he has civil impediments, he can't vote or hold certain offices. His crime was serious enough that he won't be presumed to have been completely rehabilitated until he performs a notable service to society, or at least spends many years on the straight and narrow, so that his crime can be truly overlooked or forgotten.

In Catholic faith, your "debt to society" is paid by Jesus Christ on Calvary. It's called "eternal punishment", without Christ it keeps you from going to heaven. Supposing that you do take advantage of His sacrifice, you're truly sorry, have a firm purpose of amendment, if you relapse, you go again for forgiveness (to the Sacrament of Confession).

But your sin leaves a strong trace at another layer of impurity called "temporal punishment due to sin", like the civil impediments facing the half-way house prisoner. Because "nothing impure can enter heaven", there is a place or a state, a condition of purification to render you fit for heaven after Christ has finally saved you from hell. The Catholic Church calls it purgatory.

(Where is it in the bible? Where is the word Trinity in the bible? Where does it say that you only need a personal relationship with Jesus Christ? Many valid principles aren't stated explicitly in the bible, but it does say to "hold fast to the traditions you have learned, whether by word or by letter", because much of the Gospel wasn't written down, as Jesus only wrote in the sand, the majority of the Gospel was taught from word to ear to people who couldn't afford expensive books, the exceptions were what tended to get written down. But the implication that there is a purgatory, is contained in the bible--see the comments.)

The ex-con can receive a pardon or commutation of his probation from a Governor, if he performs some heroic deed, saving numerous lives, or, like Chuck Colson, performs a long-lasting, valuable community service helping numerous people who can't help themselves.

In the Catholic Church there are 2 ways for the residual, temporal effects due to sin to be expiated: suffering in this life, or after life, undergoing purifying suffering along with other people who will finally be saved, but have to suffer for long without the vision of God--that is what causes them their pain.

Their suffering isn't meritorious enough to grant their release, the saints in heaven and those on earth suffering and practicing virtue can pray for the suffering souls in purgatory. In no way is their release by slow transfer of suffering or practice of virtue, "buying heaven". It's a long, excruciating process.

How the misunderstanding arose that Catholics think they can buy their way into heaven, is involved with history more than 500 years old. For a millennium of Christendom between roughly 410 and 1410, there was a Medieval civilization with harmony between faith and government.

Many small farmers would cluster around the manor house of a military lord who would protect them, in exchange for a certain fixed obligation of labor and agricultural produce. In most cases, those "serfs" had much more leisure than factory workers of the industrial revolution; there were a large number of holy days without work, and except for planting and harvesting, there were long stretches of idle time.

Another large sector of the economy surrounded monasteries, where the monks developed most of the farming practices that stabilized the serfs and their manorial lords. The monks who worked those monastic lands were sworn to poverty, so that monasteries built up large accumulations of economic value over decades and centuries of labor.

At the beginning, when lands were being cleared and put into production there weren't prominent town fairs ruled by merchants and bankers. Money wasn't used for sustenance, not even much barter occurred, life was mostly agrarian.

Charity was woven into the economy of monasteries. It was estimated that you only need travel 12 miles in medieval England between monasteries, where you could get a meal and minimal lodging for free, based on need. And the charity was also spiritual, including the ancient Catholic principle of prayer for the dead, which is biblical. (See "prayer for the dead" in the original King James Bible in the comment.)

There were foundations and benefices for praying for the dead, that allowed a person of means to support monasteries' charitable works, and in proportional response the monks would pray for the souls of the donors.

It happened at the close of the middle ages, that militarily strong nobles cast their eyes on the labor value accumulated by the poverty-sworn monks of the monasteries, which those nobles perceived as monetary wealth, especially where gold and jewels had been donated by the devout to adorn churches.

(Protestant writer William Cobbett wrote in his 1824 "A History of the Protestant Reformation in England and Ireland", an anecdote, that an incredibly valuable, hand illustrated bible was stripped of it's bejeweled, gold cover, the much more valuable hand-illumined manuscript, thrown in the mud and trampled by horses hooves by raiders suppressing the monasteries in Henry VIII's England.)

A new religion growing up around this seizure of monastic lands and valuables, that sought to discredit the Catholic Church, spread the black legend that the "sale of indulgences" was abusive. But this was very exceptional. Today the stipend of a Mass said for the dead is $10.

Remember what Paul said?... "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."

Paul did NOT 'say' that!

Sorry; but IS TO BE is not found among any of the following translations...

2 Corinthians 5:8

Verse (Click version for complete chapter)

New International Version
We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

New Living Translation
Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord.

English Standard Version
Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Berean Study Bible
We are confident, then, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Berean Literal Bible
Now we are confident and are pleased rather to be absent out of the body, and to be at home with the Lord.

New American Standard Bible
we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

New King James Version
We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

King James Bible
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Christian Standard Bible
In fact, we are confident, and we would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Contemporary English Version
We should be cheerful, because we would rather leave these bodies and be at home with the Lord.

Good News Translation
We are full of courage and would much prefer to leave our home in the body and be at home with the Lord.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
and we are confident and satisfied to be out of the body and at home with the Lord.

International Standard Version
We are confident, then, and would prefer to be away from this body and to live with the Lord.

NET Bible
Thus we are full of courage and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

New Heart English Bible
We are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Because of this we trust and we long to depart from the body and to be with Our Lord.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
We are confident and prefer to live away from this body and to live with the Lord.

New American Standard 1977
we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

Jubilee Bible 2000
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

King James 2000 Bible
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

American King James Version
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

American Standard Version
we are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.

Douay-Rheims Bible
But we are confident, and have a good will to be absent rather from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Darby Bible Translation
we are confident, I say, and pleased rather to be absent from the body and present with the Lord.

English Revised Version
we are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.

Webster's Bible Translation
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Weymouth New Testament
So we have a cheerful confidence, and we anticipate with greater delight being banished from the body and going home to the Lord.

World English Bible
We are courageous, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.

Young's Literal Translation
we have courage, and are well pleased rather to be away from the home of the body, and to be at home with the Lord.

You have a penchant for railing on the Catholic Pedophile Priest and their sinful ways exposed in the scandals- and seems fair enough on the surface.. No Doubt God too has seen the affliction these men have caused... But where do they fit in the BEMA theology...now I guess you can say they were never believers to begin with and were disqualified... but of course they believe in Jesus- for they get their turn still in the purpose of the BEMA seat, yes?

You are presuming they have exercised saving faith to begin with.

James 2:19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!

There is a world of difference between intellectual assent and saving faith. It seems that overall, Catholics fail to recognize that.

So a person pays lip service to Jesus. Big deal. It doesn’t mean they are saved.

So, of course watching someone lead a lifestyle of sin leads one to the conclusion that the person was never born from above to begin with. There is simply no evidence they were, regardless if they entered the priesthood or not

I've never understood the non or anti- Catholic persecution of the Priests- who violated their Catholic office and in betrayal to Hod- sinned beyond all reason which is rightly or wrongly, judged contemptible by Catholics as victims of the Church...

Are you serious????????

But why would Faith Alone believers- where sin doesn't matter once you've turned your life over to Christ " as a personal Lord and Savior- hold these sinful priest to a higher or fiffering standard the the hold gor themselves?

***sigh***

Please show us the posts where ANY of us have ever said that sin doesn’t matter once you are saved. Seriously. I want to see that.

And it’s a line of thinking that non-Catholics that Catholics seriously need to lose because it’s a false argument against Christians and a gross misrepresentation of what we believe.

Upon further reflection of you comment here, it is absolutely horrifying that you use the term persecution for the just condemnation of some of the most reprehensible sin one can commit.

God spells out clearly in Scripture what is and is not sin and using that as a basis, sin is rightly judged, and condemned.

Persecution for following Christ is for righteousness sake, NEVER because of the righteous condemnation of sin in a person’s life.

And to try to paint these sexually offending priests as victims?!?!?!?!

What is wrong with you??????????

Catholicism claims its priests are Christ’s representatives on earth. Any man who calls himself a priest or takes and keeps the office of a priest, with the blessing of the church leadership, and engages in that kind of heinous sin, is representing to the world that Christ is a homosexual pedophile or approves of it.

The damage done to the true victims of priestly sexual misconduct, goes far beyond the usual damage the act itself causes, and destroys and perverts in an unfathomable way the image of Christ, and this God to not only the victim of the crime, but to the world.

It presents to the world a God who is not righteous, pure, and holy, but one who condones and tolerates any kind of behavior a person chooses to engage in.

And then Catholics have the absolute nerve to criticize born again Christians (allegedly) saying that sin doesn’t matter????

—> Does this mean you are of this BEMA seat deal where our actions DO matter then?

God reveals the Bema Seat in Scripture, where the saved believer’s works are judged and he suffers loss or reward. In either case, he himself is saved.

—> But if the Protestant who’s foundation is Faith alone

No this is false on two fronts.

First, there are ONLY saved believers OR the unsaved, regardless of church affiliation.

Second, faith is how we receive His Indescribable gift. He is the basis, His sacrifice and grace alone save.

Christ alone saves.
Works do not save.
Churches do not save.

—> So sinning boldly at a pagan potluck should not be an issue for Paul to be concerned with.

But he was.

—> we are not “under the Law” of even the 10 Commandments

Saved believers are dead to the Law.

But this is never a license to sin. Sin breaks our fellowship with God. The consequences of sin at the Bema Seat is described as loss.

When we are saved, we have a new relationship with God. It is Him we want to please.

Here is the paragraph in the Greek literal sense for your rumination…

2 Corinthians 5:5–10 (WUESTNT):

“Now, He who by His working in us made us fit for this very thing [the change from mortality to life] is God, He who gave us the Spirit as a token payment in kind, guaranteeing to us the rest of our salvation.

“Being therefore always confident, and knowing that while we are in our natural home [for this earthly existence] in our body, we are living abroad, absent from [that home in heaven] the Lord, for through faith we are ordering our manner of life, not by something seen.

“Now, we are of good courage and well pleased rather to be away from our body as our home, and at home face to face with the Lord.

Wherefore, we make it our aim, whether at home or living abroad, to be well pleasing to Him, for it is necessary in the nature of the case for all of us to be openly shown as to our true character before the judgment seat of Christ, in order that each one may receive [a recompense with respect to] the things which were practiced through the agency of our body, whether they were good or bad.

And just so you know, that’s why Paul told (1 Thess 4:13-18) you that when Jesus descends from Heaven with a shout ...

“Sadly to say, the above will upset any Mormons that might read it; as they KNOW that Jesus and the Father (with His body of flesh; too) has already appeared quietly in a wooded area back in the 1830’s in New York state.”

Your premise is not likely to upset any members of the Church of Jesus Christ that I know. Why would it? They are all Bible believing Christian’s. The same Bible in no way restricts or limits The Prince of Peace from doing whatever he deems necessary for the salvation and exaltation of God’s children.

Shirley you are aware that Christ has appeared enumerable times to those worthy or needful of his presence? In Old Testament, New Testament as well as times since. The appearance in your quote above will not be a pleasant experience for perhaps half the world population.

And of course our conversation should there be one, still will not address the mountain of confusion that exists in the so called Christian Community of individual religion.

When I read the kind of Roman drivel that comes out on these threads, I have to remind myself that these arguments serve to convince other people I’ve shown, not to mention sharpening myself.

But sheesh. We show them that Peter, Paul, John, and the entire leadership of the early Church is against them, and the response is... what, more strawmen?

It’s obvious that so many Catholics worship Roman Catholicism, not God.

Part of me also thinks that if they spent half the energy actually fighting anainst pedo priests as they do whining about how mean we are to them because of their pedo priests, they’d have solved the problem already.

Wonder why they haven’t bothered...

God reveals the Bema Seat in Scripture, where the saved believer’s works are judged and he suffers loss or reward. In either case, he himself is saved.

God reveals much in Scripture, and so it is up to us to decide. I do not see the Bema thing yet in Scripture- its all new, as I’ve never heard of it before- though I’ve done some digging- and as you can imagine I see a lot of trouble spots in this belief.

I don’t find the word in the Bema in the Bible- though if it was revealed in some way, we still have the hurdle of accepting scripture as we each get to decide. I see it as no different for me saying to you, “God has revealed the Eucharist to us in Scripture, and often” and you of course would not agree with as well. We get to decide.

I don’t see the amount of evidence – so far, and I’m not finished looking – but so far I see this belief ideal based on a few lines of scripture – strung together. I looked at one video that analogized this bema seat thing as like an Olympic podium- Gold-Silver-Bronze levels as rewards that are being doled out… for efforts. I’m like – no way Jose…
I musta missed that bible study.

The seating similarities to Catholicism though are interesting...
We believe:

He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.

Though to be sure - Christ is seated- as mentioned- but I do not want to think I would put the Father in a like human form also seated. Haven’t thought that through or looked into it- but I won’t pretend to know his form on Judgement Day. I’m sure there are verses, but of no need for me, personally.

With regard to this “judgement seat” deal, I see the Pauline verses that are cited- but when I search further I see other seat verses that give me pause to jump on the “balance bema”. (pun back to the Olympic Podium)

John19
13 Now when Pilate had heard these words, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat, in the place that is called Lithostrotos, and in Hebrew Gabbatha.

Matt 27: 19 Besides, while he was sitting on the judgment seat, his wife sent word to him, “Have nothing to do with that righteous man, for I have suffered much over him today in a dream.”

Now don’t get in a tizzy, I am not equating Pilate’s judgement with God’s – but I can’t square the reference of a judgement seat in scripture in reading those Gospel verses - as to be specific to a certain kind of seat… especially one that is to be thought of as giving rewards… Got to think this through, but as a bible thumper I’m not seeing the possibility of distinction. To note I was never sure what to make of Dante's comedy- but I do see some parallel there as well...

Second, faith is how we receive His Indescribable gift. He is the basis, His sacrifice and grace alone save
Christ alone saves.
Works do not save.
Churches do not save.

Well, you've never been to good God fearin Texas revival meeting then...
Anyway, OK so Faith Alone is off the table… so dang confusing eeping all this straight… but Salvation Assurance is not, correct?
And was I born with Free Will or not? If I have Free Will- do I - can I lose it at some point?

But this is never a license to sin.

To that I would have to say… “So what”… Is there a cop around ?
sin never has a license – or needs one.. ?
Sin is of the will, a desire – that is not something we always can consciously control – what your saying – its ok to sin,,, just don’t think you have a right to..
Yes , the wages of sin…

When we are saved, we have a new relationship with God. It is Him we want to please.

Is there a way in this bema seat theology that you know you are saved – and not just thinking that you are? Is there a way to avoid that label of someone telling you later down the road- “well, you weren’t really saved in the first Place?”

Still looking for that assurance.

Murph, you wrote…

—> Still looking for that assurance.

And I note that is commendable.

—> I do not see the Bema thing yet in Scripture- its all new, as I’ve never heard of it before- though I’ve done some digging- and as you can imagine I see a lot of trouble spots in this belief.

2 Corinthians 5:10, Paul gives the Corinthian church an illustration of the Bema Seat, “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.”

Romans 14:10–12 “For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. . . . So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God

At the judgment seat of Christ, believers are rewarded based on how faithfully they served Christ (1 Corinthians 9:4-27; 2 Timothy 2:5).

—> I don’t find the word in the Bema in the Bible- though if it was revealed in some way, we still have the hurdle of accepting scripture as we each get to decide.

The term, Bema Seat, is taken from the Greek word for judgment, bēma. So you won’t find it in English translations. It is from the Greek text.

—> … but Salvation Assurance is not, correct?

Assurance of salvation is a result of receiving salvation and believing what God says in Scripture.

—> To that I would have to say… “So what”… Is there a cop around ?

No, but our God who is omnipresent is!

—> what your saying – its ok to sin,,, just don’t think you have a right to..

It’s never OK to sin. Christ had to die to pay the penalty. It does not make the saved into the unsaved.

—> Is there a way in this bema seat theology that you know you are saved – and not just thinking that you are?

No one except the saved believers will appear before the Bema Seat, where their works are judged.

Assurance of salvation is based entirely on what God says happens to the saved believer at the moment he entrusts himself to Christ’s payment alone for his salvation.

“He who searches, finds.”

Search on FRiend.

Looks like I was right. Why didn’t any of your associates with “spiritual understanding” pick up on it? Maybe it has something to do with wisdom?

Psalms 110:10The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.

Or maybe it has something to do with spiritual hearing?

Proverbs 28:9One who turns away his ear from hearing the law,
Even his prayer is an abomination.

John 9:31
We know that God does not listen to sinners, but He does listen to the one who worships Him and does His will.

(worships Him and does his will...of course all with “spiritual understanding” keep saying you don’t have to DO anything, right?)

I wonder if God was listening to Ravi during the last years of his life? Nah, just messing with you. Ravi was just sowing his flesh oats. The indwelt spirit didn’t care. Obeying God means nothing. God isn’t serious about that sin thing once you’re saved. Either you can’t sin or God can’t expect you to keep the unkeepable commandments, even with the help of the Holy Spirit, right? Yeah, Ravi’s good to go (where to is the ultimate question, however). OSAS is legit doctrine. Those with spiritual understanding all say so. In heaven, Ravi’s going to have some great stories about how he got away with rape and adultery for years on earth and he STILL got eternal life (/s). Ravi won’t be judged on his salvation because Metmom (courtesy ping) said so in post 712 [”Believers? None concerning their salvation. Only their works will be judged to see if they endure, which is NOT the believer being judged to see if he endures”]. (/s)

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