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Locked on 04/24/2022 5:40:39 AM PDT by Religion Moderator, reason:
Childishness |
Posted on 03/06/2022 11:16:06 AM PST by CharlesOConnell
A man commits a serious crime, then he gets released. He has "paid his debt to society". But wait a minute, he's only ready for the half-way house. He's unlikely to get a prestigious job in his new prison suit coat, or any job at all; he has civil impediments, he can't vote or hold certain offices. His crime was serious enough that he won't be presumed to have been completely rehabilitated until he performs a notable service to society, or at least spends many years on the straight and narrow, so that his crime can be truly overlooked or forgotten.
In Catholic faith, your "debt to society" is paid by Jesus Christ on Calvary. It's called "eternal punishment", without Christ it keeps you from going to heaven. Supposing that you do take advantage of His sacrifice, you're truly sorry, have a firm purpose of amendment, if you relapse, you go again for forgiveness (to the Sacrament of Confession).
But your sin leaves a strong trace at another layer of impurity called "temporal punishment due to sin", like the civil impediments facing the half-way house prisoner. Because "nothing impure can enter heaven", there is a place or a state, a condition of purification to render you fit for heaven after Christ has finally saved you from hell. The Catholic Church calls it purgatory.
(Where is it in the bible? Where is the word Trinity in the bible? Where does it say that you only need a personal relationship with Jesus Christ? Many valid principles aren't stated explicitly in the bible, but it does say to "hold fast to the traditions you have learned, whether by word or by letter", because much of the Gospel wasn't written down, as Jesus only wrote in the sand, the majority of the Gospel was taught from word to ear to people who couldn't afford expensive books, the exceptions were what tended to get written down. But the implication that there is a purgatory, is contained in the bible--see the comments.)
The ex-con can receive a pardon or commutation of his probation from a Governor, if he performs some heroic deed, saving numerous lives, or, like Chuck Colson, performs a long-lasting, valuable community service helping numerous people who can't help themselves.
In the Catholic Church there are 2 ways for the residual, temporal effects due to sin to be expiated: suffering in this life, or after life, undergoing purifying suffering along with other people who will finally be saved, but have to suffer for long without the vision of God--that is what causes them their pain.
Their suffering isn't meritorious enough to grant their release, the saints in heaven and those on earth suffering and practicing virtue can pray for the suffering souls in purgatory. In no way is their release by slow transfer of suffering or practice of virtue, "buying heaven". It's a long, excruciating process.
How the misunderstanding arose that Catholics think they can buy their way into heaven, is involved with history more than 500 years old. For a millennium of Christendom between roughly 410 and 1410, there was a Medieval civilization with harmony between faith and government.
Many small farmers would cluster around the manor house of a military lord who would protect them, in exchange for a certain fixed obligation of labor and agricultural produce. In most cases, those "serfs" had much more leisure than factory workers of the industrial revolution; there were a large number of holy days without work, and except for planting and harvesting, there were long stretches of idle time.
Another large sector of the economy surrounded monasteries, where the monks developed most of the farming practices that stabilized the serfs and their manorial lords. The monks who worked those monastic lands were sworn to poverty, so that monasteries built up large accumulations of economic value over decades and centuries of labor.
At the beginning, when lands were being cleared and put into production there weren't prominent town fairs ruled by merchants and bankers. Money wasn't used for sustenance, not even much barter occurred, life was mostly agrarian.
Charity was woven into the economy of monasteries. It was estimated that you only need travel 12 miles in medieval England between monasteries, where you could get a meal and minimal lodging for free, based on need. And the charity was also spiritual, including the ancient Catholic principle of prayer for the dead, which is biblical. (See "prayer for the dead" in the original King James Bible in the comment.)
There were foundations and benefices for praying for the dead, that allowed a person of means to support monasteries' charitable works, and in proportional response the monks would pray for the souls of the donors.
It happened at the close of the middle ages, that militarily strong nobles cast their eyes on the labor value accumulated by the poverty-sworn monks of the monasteries, which those nobles perceived as monetary wealth, especially where gold and jewels had been donated by the devout to adorn churches.
(Protestant writer William Cobbett wrote in his 1824 "A History of the Protestant Reformation in England and Ireland", an anecdote, that an incredibly valuable, hand illustrated bible was stripped of it's bejeweled, gold cover, the much more valuable hand-illumined manuscript, thrown in the mud and trampled by horses hooves by raiders suppressing the monasteries in Henry VIII's England.)
A new religion growing up around this seizure of monastic lands and valuables, that sought to discredit the Catholic Church, spread the black legend that the "sale of indulgences" was abusive. But this was very exceptional. Today the stipend of a Mass said for the dead is $10.
-—>It’s blasphemous because it means that Jesus was NOT the only sinless one to ever live.
“You would be right if we were only talking about ON THIS EARTH, but we aren’t. Have the angels who are in heaven right now, ever sinned? Is that blasphemous? Has Gabriel ever sinned? NO THEY HAVE NOT. How about other created beings on other planets? Get it?”
- - - - -
Oh, unbunch those knickers and listen for a change.
God did not create angels in His own image. You asked, “How about other created beings on other planets?” Where? Who? That is so important that God would not have left it out of His word. Get it? There’s only ONE Sinless One, Christ Jesus. Get it? There are no glowing people on Kolob or wherever your prophetess was taken by her “guides.”
You don’t believe the Bible, you believe your prophetess.
——>Psst, Phil, the link I gave you twice contains the citations that you’re demanding.
Not from “LAW EXPERTS”. You said there were 12 (a dozen). Please list those. Or are you making that up too?
Were Adam and Eve sinless before they “sinned”?
You can lead a Phil to Scripture but you can’t make him think.
I’m bored of you now. Have the last word for tge moment if you like; I’ll wait until the next thread to wipe out your false prophetess on again and again.
“Were Adam and Eve sinless before they “sinned”?”
Is that a real question? I know where you’re trying to go but the Bible has already answered it in that Jesus is the 2nd or Last Adam. There’s some great material for your weekend study.
Adam and Eve were not righteous.(Rev19:8)
“You can lead a Phil to Scripture but you can’t make him think.”
It is difficult to get through to someone in a cult that the Bible is supreme to any other person’s words. It almost looks like some have read only the material approved by their cult and never dusted off their Bible to see if what is stated in their writings comports with the Bible.
Suppose one of those sinless ones in the otherworld were to sin. Could they claim the blood of Jesus?
Also, is there any death there or not?
——>God did not create angels in His own image.
How do you know? Regardless, I said CREATED beings. Angels are CREATED beings. Humans are CREATED beings. Angels certainly can sin, and some did. The ones that are left in heaven, obeying God’s law, ARE SINLESS and remain so.
——>“How about other created beings on other planets?” Where? Who? That is so important that God would not have left it out of His word. Get it?
Hebrews 1:
1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the WORLDS;
Hebrews 11:
3Through faith we understand that the WORLDS were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Albert Barnes Commentary on Hebrews 11:3
That the worlds - In Genesis 1:1, it is “the heaven and the earth.” The phrase which the apostle uses denotes a plurality of worlds, and is proof that he supposed there were other worlds besides our earth. How far his knowledge extended on this point, we have no means of ascertaining, but there is no reason to doubt that he regarded the stars as “worlds” in some respects like our own. On the meaning of the Greek word used here, see the notes on Hebrews 1:2. The plural form is used there also, and in both cases, it seems to me, not without design.
Get it?
——>Also, is there any death there or not?
If not for sin, Adam and Eve, and their children, would have lived forever, eating from the tree of Life.
So, your answer then is “no?” There is no death there and no sin. Did Lucifer ever visit them?
I don’t like to talk about the garbage, they call the theory of evolution, very much. Let me ask, however, the age old question, that has been asked by millions, is where is the missing link? At what minute, or second, did that ape cease being an ape, and start being a human? When? And if a male and female ape did not suddenly become humans, at exactly the same time, then one was guilty of beastiality. Other than that, discussing evolution to me, is dead and stinking.
WERE
ADAM
AND
EVE
SINLESS
BEFORE
THEY
SINNED
?
Yes or No?
They don’t.
Good question that never gets answered, Mark. We should be crunching on the bones of dead animals and peoples showing evolutionary changes, but they’re just not there.
The question I have, and which they don’t answer either, is where did the spark of life come from? Life can only come from life.
What gets me is how does say a little amoeba decide something? Anything at all? It would not even have the capacity to know that it lacked anything because there would not have been anything for the poor little thang to compare itself.
BUT, let’s suppose it for the little baby amoeba. “I wish I could see my world!” the little dumb amoeba exclaimed.
Then what?
What the hell did that little amoeba do exactly to start growing things??? What did it know that we don’t?
“Oh, look! It’s a nose! Nooooo. I wanted to see not smell! It’s stanky in here.”
How does it just start growing parts that were previously not in existence? If we’re at the top and we can’t do it, it means that little baby amoeba was smarter than the world combined. That’s kinda depressing, Mark.
Did Lucifer visit heaven after his fall? (yes) Is there death in heaven? (no)
THE
ANSWER
IS
IN
YOUR
QUESTION,
PHIL.
Of course they were sinless before they sinned, hence their need of a Savior.
You changed my question, Phil. I didn’t ask if there was death in heaven. I asked you if there was death where these super great people exist.
——>Adam and Eve were not righteous.(Rev19:8)
They were before they sinned.
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