Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

This thread has been locked, it will not receive new replies.
Locked on 04/24/2022 5:40:39 AM PDT by Religion Moderator, reason:

Childishness



Skip to comments.

Catholics Don't Believe You Can Earn Your Way to Heaven
Tradition | 03-06-2022 | CharlesOconnell

Posted on 03/06/2022 11:16:06 AM PST by CharlesOConnell

A man commits a serious crime, then he gets released. He has "paid his debt to society". But wait a minute, he's only ready for the half-way house. He's unlikely to get a prestigious job in his new prison suit coat, or any job at all; he has civil impediments, he can't vote or hold certain offices. His crime was serious enough that he won't be presumed to have been completely rehabilitated until he performs a notable service to society, or at least spends many years on the straight and narrow, so that his crime can be truly overlooked or forgotten.

In Catholic faith, your "debt to society" is paid by Jesus Christ on Calvary. It's called "eternal punishment", without Christ it keeps you from going to heaven. Supposing that you do take advantage of His sacrifice, you're truly sorry, have a firm purpose of amendment, if you relapse, you go again for forgiveness (to the Sacrament of Confession).

But your sin leaves a strong trace at another layer of impurity called "temporal punishment due to sin", like the civil impediments facing the half-way house prisoner. Because "nothing impure can enter heaven", there is a place or a state, a condition of purification to render you fit for heaven after Christ has finally saved you from hell. The Catholic Church calls it purgatory.

(Where is it in the bible? Where is the word Trinity in the bible? Where does it say that you only need a personal relationship with Jesus Christ? Many valid principles aren't stated explicitly in the bible, but it does say to "hold fast to the traditions you have learned, whether by word or by letter", because much of the Gospel wasn't written down, as Jesus only wrote in the sand, the majority of the Gospel was taught from word to ear to people who couldn't afford expensive books, the exceptions were what tended to get written down. But the implication that there is a purgatory, is contained in the bible--see the comments.)

The ex-con can receive a pardon or commutation of his probation from a Governor, if he performs some heroic deed, saving numerous lives, or, like Chuck Colson, performs a long-lasting, valuable community service helping numerous people who can't help themselves.

In the Catholic Church there are 2 ways for the residual, temporal effects due to sin to be expiated: suffering in this life, or after life, undergoing purifying suffering along with other people who will finally be saved, but have to suffer for long without the vision of God--that is what causes them their pain.

Their suffering isn't meritorious enough to grant their release, the saints in heaven and those on earth suffering and practicing virtue can pray for the suffering souls in purgatory. In no way is their release by slow transfer of suffering or practice of virtue, "buying heaven". It's a long, excruciating process.

How the misunderstanding arose that Catholics think they can buy their way into heaven, is involved with history more than 500 years old. For a millennium of Christendom between roughly 410 and 1410, there was a Medieval civilization with harmony between faith and government.

Many small farmers would cluster around the manor house of a military lord who would protect them, in exchange for a certain fixed obligation of labor and agricultural produce. In most cases, those "serfs" had much more leisure than factory workers of the industrial revolution; there were a large number of holy days without work, and except for planting and harvesting, there were long stretches of idle time.

Another large sector of the economy surrounded monasteries, where the monks developed most of the farming practices that stabilized the serfs and their manorial lords. The monks who worked those monastic lands were sworn to poverty, so that monasteries built up large accumulations of economic value over decades and centuries of labor.

At the beginning, when lands were being cleared and put into production there weren't prominent town fairs ruled by merchants and bankers. Money wasn't used for sustenance, not even much barter occurred, life was mostly agrarian.

Charity was woven into the economy of monasteries. It was estimated that you only need travel 12 miles in medieval England between monasteries, where you could get a meal and minimal lodging for free, based on need. And the charity was also spiritual, including the ancient Catholic principle of prayer for the dead, which is biblical. (See "prayer for the dead" in the original King James Bible in the comment.)

There were foundations and benefices for praying for the dead, that allowed a person of means to support monasteries' charitable works, and in proportional response the monks would pray for the souls of the donors.

It happened at the close of the middle ages, that militarily strong nobles cast their eyes on the labor value accumulated by the poverty-sworn monks of the monasteries, which those nobles perceived as monetary wealth, especially where gold and jewels had been donated by the devout to adorn churches.

(Protestant writer William Cobbett wrote in his 1824 "A History of the Protestant Reformation in England and Ireland", an anecdote, that an incredibly valuable, hand illustrated bible was stripped of it's bejeweled, gold cover, the much more valuable hand-illumined manuscript, thrown in the mud and trampled by horses hooves by raiders suppressing the monasteries in Henry VIII's England.)

A new religion growing up around this seizure of monastic lands and valuables, that sought to discredit the Catholic Church, spread the black legend that the "sale of indulgences" was abusive. But this was very exceptional. Today the stipend of a Mass said for the dead is $10.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Religion & Culture; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; catholicbashing; cult; dontbelieve; indulgences; praytomary
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 1,701-1,7201,721-1,7401,741-1,760 ... 2,981-2,993 next last
To: aMorePerfectUnion

👍


1,721 posted on 04/06/2022 8:19:24 AM PDT by SouthernClaire (God Bless America)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1720 | View Replies]

To: imardmd1

——>You don’t understand who the Nicolaitans were, either. They are the religionists who split their constituents into two classes: a clergy to dominate the “lay” class.

Thank you for the history lesson, Professor. However, that doesn’t change the fact that they believed that after Grace, THEY HAD A LICENSE TO FORNICATE (and other sins as well). It was OSAS and nothing could touch them. I can see how your doctrine appeals to degenerates. It’s a win/win for them. They are specifically mentioned by Jesus Christ in Revelation. That should give you pause.


1,722 posted on 04/06/2022 8:26:26 AM PDT by Philsworld
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1655 | View Replies]

To: Luircin; Mark17; af_vet_1981; MurphsLaw; aMorePerfectUnion; SouthernClaire; metmom
When God counted Abraham's belief as righteousness, by Whom did God swear that Covenant? BY Abraham's subsequent works or by the immutability of God's election?

God swear by Himself, so the subsequent actions of Abraham are not counted against what God has done.

God counted Abraham's belief as righteousness. THEN God let Abram know that he and sarah would have a son through whom the world would be blessed thereby the world being blessed through Abraham.

What did Abram do thereafter? Well, he doubted the Promise of God and entered into a plot hatched by unbel;ieving Sara and the servant girl bore Abraham a son out of season, Ishmael, father of the Arab nations! Did the Promise of God become null and void when Abraham disbelieved and fathered Ishmael? No, for when God Promises it will come to pass. The election of God is without repentance ... God does not cancel His Promises.

When God told Moses that the disbelieving Hebrews would die in the desert and not enter into the rewards, was God removing the first principle of having rescued them from egypt, their salvation from slavery? No, He withheld their rewards but still fed them as they wandered int he desert for forty years.

Paul explains this perspective in 1 Cor 3.

So, in Hebrews where Paul raises the issue of eternal security, he makes it plain -in the Greek it is plain, but in English not so much- that so long as a saved person stumps back into unbelief int he Promise there remains no means to repent of the unbelief, BUT the impossibility of repentance ENDS when one stops disbelieving. As shown in 1 Corinthians the rest, the rewards are now unreachable but the status of saved is not annulled because it is God Who saved one before they stumped in unbelief.

The flesh does not get us into God's hands and the flesh cannot get us out of God's Hands, for He saves as Glorification to The Son Who gave us the writ of exoneration. We did not purchase it and we cannot nulligy it.

The CAtholic lack of knowledge of the Bema Seat Judgment which happens in Heaven for ONLY those Whom God has birthed from above, irrevocably, may be the key to their persistent hold on grace and works. The works get judged at the Bema Seat not the Great White Throne of Judgment. Paul even cites that as thorns and briars being burned up, and explains in 1 Cor 3 that the saved one will be saved in the Bema Judgment but as by fire which burns away all the works not done under Holy Spirit leadership.

The Catholic Apologists will not receive the above telling because it can silence their insistence that works are necessary to retain Salvation. The addition of ANYTHING to what Jesus declared finished is blasphemy. Adding anything to His work done once for all forever is claiming He did not or could not do enough so the flesh has to add to His work. That is why Purgatory is a blasphemy.

1,723 posted on 04/06/2022 8:32:52 AM PDT by MHGinTN (A dispensation perspective is a powerful tool for discernment)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1718 | View Replies]

To: Luircin; boatbums; metmom; MHGinTN

——>Do you even read anyone else’s posts at all?

You shouldn’t talk...You must have not read all the posts where Boatbums, Metmom, and MHGintn (and others) ALL said that Ravi was saved and will definitely be in heaven (although he may be missing a few jewels in his crown, etc...(his “Penalty”).


1,724 posted on 04/06/2022 8:36:34 AM PDT by Philsworld
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1704 | View Replies]

To: Luircin; MHGinTN

——>We’ve only been trying to tell you for literally weeks that we can’t know if *someone else* is saved because only God knows the hearts of all mankind.

My question is actually for MHGintn: Is Andy Woods saved?


1,725 posted on 04/06/2022 8:38:44 AM PDT by Philsworld
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1704 | View Replies]

To: MHGinTN
I am at a loss to have compassion on someone who contradicts what GOD put in His written Word!

btw, I forget to mention that I noticed your reply to my question about the indwelling spirit – you veered off into “works”, “purgatory” and “the Mother of Jesus”
(”whom ALL ages will call her “Blessed””) in the hopes of avoiding my grievance with your faith reasoning.

I asked the question below, because I want to know what the deal is….

I asked in regard to why you stated - “you” are at a loss “to have compassion” ...
– and why that compassion is being limited- and how?- so in not understanding how the “self” interacts with the indwelled spirit I asked -

“ Why do you, in the flesh, control of the spirit and its gifts you should embrace then?

Should the exposition of that Spirit not be under control of the self? Which has more control over the Flesh then?- or are we dealing with 2 totally different natures- and not a combined one?

Not sure exactly how this indwelled Spirit “works” as you believe it to..… (As for myself - I know I choose not to do what Christ tells us to do in Matt 5 … and that is “Love my enemy”... Why- I don't know ...
(And No- you are not my enemy, not drawing any connection there- only pointing out what “I” have failed to do)
1,726 posted on 04/06/2022 9:23:49 AM PDT by MurphsLaw (+++5"But whoever keeps his word, the love of God is truly perfected in him"...+++)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1647 | View Replies]

To: CharlesOConnell

I know I’m very late to this party, but my friend’s husband used to be a priest and he definitely believes his good works will get him to Heaven.


1,727 posted on 04/06/2022 9:25:20 AM PDT by MayflowerMadam (When government fears the people, there is liberty.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: metmom
There IS, however, ONE condition in which works can save someone. That is if a person could lead a perfect life in thought, word, and deed, just as Jesus did.

Perhaps not. We are condemned already. In Adam, all die, even Christ.
1,728 posted on 04/06/2022 9:31:49 AM PDT by Seven_0 (You cannot fool all of the people, ever!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1710 | View Replies]

To: Philsworld

You are a cultist liar, so why would anyone even try to get through to uyour dead soul? You are ‘being’ the accuser of the brethren. Get thee behind us, satan.


1,729 posted on 04/06/2022 9:51:43 AM PDT by MHGinTN (A dispensation perspective is a powerful tool for discernment)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1725 | View Replies]

To: Mark17
If good works merit nothing for our salvation, than bad works cannot merit our damnation. So that can't be a path to hell, can it?

--->Um, yes, works can, and is a path to Hell. Even faith plus works is a path to hell. Which path are you on?

I get your disapprovals... I do. But thats not what I'm asking.
I explained to you my path-
One that accepts Jesus Christ as Lord- and Savior
And... in confessing by mouth, daily, -

I believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.
I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God,.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come.


I understand this Belief in Christ to be the saving belief – as do you -

Now I ask you again, based on what YOU believe.…

WHAT MORE must I do, to inherit Eternal Life?


1,730 posted on 04/06/2022 9:56:51 AM PDT by MurphsLaw (+++5"But whoever keeps his word, the love of God is truly perfected in him"...+++)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1709 | View Replies]

To: Seven_0
Jesus told His disciples right before going to the croszs that death has nothing in Him. He died by God's Grace not by a sin nature. He died for us so that we may live by faith in what He did for us, ONCE, FOR ALL, FOREVER. He declared it as He breathed his last, 'tetelesai'.

That term was a seal of finished transaction. There is nothing required after that seal. Those who believe God, in Christ are a new creation and have passed from spiritual death unto Life.

All humans will be resurrected because of what Jesus accomplished on the Cross. Sadly some will be resurrected to shame and others to ever lasting life. Those in the Body of Christ will be resurrected in the Apostasia and will not be standing for judgment at the Great White Throne following the millennia because they have already been judged in Christ a new creation indwelt by His righteousness.

1,731 posted on 04/06/2022 9:59:27 AM PDT by MHGinTN (A dispensation perspective is a powerful tool for discernment)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1728 | View Replies]

To: MurphsLaw
Keep asking for an answer to what God has already answered and you have been shown numerous times. The road is broad and the gate you are approaching is wide open ...

Because you are drowning in a religion which adds works to what Christ accomplished and sealed as FINISHED, you are unable to see the difference between salvation of the spirit and rectification of the behavior mechanism. God didn't send His Son to die on that cross so your flesh could be rectified. He has Promised a new behavior mechanism and new body, so the one you now have as your flesh (soul + body being 'the flesh' is destined for obliteration. There is no purgatory to cleanse the flesh in which is deadness. GOD births a new spirit in anyone, ANY ONE, who believes in their heart (the will attached tot he spirit) that Jesus is Their Savior.

There is nothing except blasphemy to adding to what Only Jesus could accomplish, and Did accomplish once, for all, forever. Some will accept that 'tetelestai' and some will not. To those who believe He gave eternal life.

1,732 posted on 04/06/2022 10:08:44 AM PDT by MHGinTN (A dispensation perspective is a powerful tool for discernment)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1730 | View Replies]

To: metmom
If good works merit nothing for our salvation, than bad works cannot merit our damnation. So that can't be a path to hell, can it?

---> Yes they can.

Please explain how -
Because as a Believer, whereas I have made the same assent of Christ as Lord and Savior as you have -
ALL my sins, past present and future are covered, purchased by His Blood, ... and paid in full as you say...

How can they- sin, bad works - lead me to hell then?

Can you sin, and not have that sin paid for then as well?


1,733 posted on 04/06/2022 10:25:15 AM PDT by MurphsLaw (+++5"But whoever keeps his word, the love of God is truly perfected in him"...+++)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1710 | View Replies]

To: MHGinTN
He did for us, ONCE, FOR ALL, FOREVER. He declared it as He breathed his last, 'tetelesai'.

I have a problem with this. If we say that Christ died in our place, then why do we also die? Maybe Christ is talking about the second death.
1,734 posted on 04/06/2022 10:30:29 AM PDT by Seven_0 (You cannot fool all of the people, ever!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1731 | View Replies]

To: MHGinTN
There is a teaching from Chuck Missler which exposes the very wrong perspective you are using with regard to eternal security.

Whoa. Just whoa.
I saw some value in the Major Ian video I can say without concern.
But have you looked into this Missler person?
C'mon man? you cannot be serious-
This guy joins the Navy, goes to work - 30 years later gets indicted for scamming his ex- tech company- costs him $1.6 MILLION dollars.. starts another business that goes bankrupt...
WHY in the world would you or anyone, seek out this man's spiritual advice? This sounds reminiscent of the L. Ron Hubbard bio... though L Ron got a lot luckier with the sci-fi hook...

You like to throw around words like blasphemy, heresy and "false Gospel and teachers"... and I say "OK" -
But Geez Loiuse man!...
this Missler guy embodies those same thoughts you despise - sans your brand of Faith.

Not to fluff you anymore than you need- but I'd rathe follow you... than I guy like that. Sorry- I want more than that.

I hold the Bible to be the authority over all other means of searching.

The Church holds the Bible in it's highest authority as well.
In fact, we can say we regard the ENTIRE Bible for ts authoritative teachings as through the 3 year lectionary process we praise almost 95% of the Bible through the Liturgy of the Mass ... and then start back all over and read it again.

Your Faith beliefs will allow you to ONLY read those parts of the Bible that are self-referential for you- and allowing you NOT to have to read those parts of the Bible or verses contrary to your belief, and would rather not consider at all.
Again, you control the volume for you.

Furthermore, and correct me if I am wrong- It is You who rather prefer to choose to use the Bible as a proof texting- bullet pointed classroom text book - to prove everyone else wrong, correct?
And what happens through that process- when the Bible is used like a text book in such a way - people can't naturally will confuse brathing their own life into the bible- reading into it what they need to - and giving the idea that the Bible itself becomes the mechanism OF Christianity itself, while overshadowing a much more real and living Christ.
That is why you continue on making statements like "You wrest the scriptures, using verses out of context to fabricate meanings..." On the surface your claim can be vaild- but not as intended for me, of course- lol- but if you put 10 people in a room and gave thenm one verse - they copuld all find 10 different meanings... though "mine" of course is always the correct one. Better yet- throw 20 different Bibles of 20 different translations on the table- and ask someone to pick the correct Bible.

As I have mentioned - you get the substance of a meal by eating it - by consuming it, taking it into you.
You CANNOT get anything substantial from a meal by looking at it, reading about it - arguing about it or looking at pictures of it.
If you want substance, you must take it within you - not as abstract varying letters and words on a page construed into as many different meanings as there are believers.
That's NOT AUTHORITY.

For Christians, Christ IS NOT A BULLET POINT in a text book...


1,735 posted on 04/06/2022 1:55:29 PM PDT by MurphsLaw (+++5"But whoever keeps his word, the love of God is truly perfected in him"...+++)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1708 | View Replies]

To: MHGinTN

Either he is, or he isn’t. Yes or no?


1,736 posted on 04/06/2022 2:15:04 PM PDT by Philsworld
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1729 | View Replies]

To: MurphsLaw; MHGinTN; aMorePerfectUnion; metmom
Ok, I will answer, in the hope that you honestly want to know the truth. If you honestly want to know the truth, listen to me. If you are just looking for gotcha things, then ignore everything I say.

WHAT MORE must I do, to inherit Eternal Life?

First let me say, you sound like the rich young ruler, who asked Jesus the EXACT same question. Here was a guy, who had kept all the commandments (at least outwardly) and yet, he still had an inner feeling it wasn’t enough, when he asked, what more must I do, to inherit eternal life? The answer to that question, is NOTHING. You can’t do ANYTHING to inherit eternal life. You must do a John 3:3, and be born anew from above. That is called saving faith. Beyond that, there isn’t ANYTHING you can do. People, including you, me, and everyone, KNOW Jesus died for sinners, including you, me and everyone. That’s head knowledge. You, me and everyone, need an 18 inch conversion, from your head to your heart. that would be a John 3:3 conversion, from your head to your heart. You can say Jesus died for sinners, that’s a fact, and it doesn’t help you at all. When you can say, in my heart of hearts, I know beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Jesus died for me personally. THAT’S SALVATION BRO. Do you see the difference between head knowledge, and heart knowledge? One leads to hell, the other leads to Heaven.
The John 3:3 born anew experience happens ONLY ONCE in your life. ONLY ONCE, and it lasts forever. That’s a comforting thought.
Maybe the born anew experience has already happened to you. I hope so, but I don’t know. It’s between you and God.
What about good works? I am glad you asked, cuz I am going to tell you. Good works are good, but if you are relying on your good works to get saved, or stay saved, stop now. It won’t work. In God’s eyes, our good works are filthy rags. We don’t do good works to get saved, or to stay saved. We do good works, BECAUSE we are saved (forever) We do good works, to show our gratitude to God, for saving us from the fires of hell. If we could actually see the fires of hell, we would be so shocked, we would never choose to go there.
I don’t care what church church or sect you may attend, it’s doesn’t matter a hill of beans. I hope this helps. It’s from the heart. If you are honestly seeking the truth, take it to heart. If you are not seeking the truth, ignore everything I say, and continue on your merry way. There really isn’t anything else that can be said. The ball is in your court bro. 😀👍

1,737 posted on 04/06/2022 2:36:51 PM PDT by Mark17 (Retired USAF air traffic controller. Father of a USAF pilot. USAF aviation runs in the family )
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1730 | View Replies]

To: Mark17

Hear here! Selah


1,738 posted on 04/06/2022 2:42:10 PM PDT by MHGinTN (A dispensation perspective is a powerful tool for discernment)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1737 | View Replies]

To: Mark17

Amen!


1,739 posted on 04/06/2022 3:11:00 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith….)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1737 | View Replies]

To: MHGinTN; metmom

To the glory of God. 👍😀


1,740 posted on 04/06/2022 3:18:09 PM PDT by Mark17 (Retired USAF air traffic controller. Father of a USAF pilot. USAF aviation runs in the family )
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1738 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 1,701-1,7201,721-1,7401,741-1,760 ... 2,981-2,993 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson