| This thread has been locked, it will not receive new replies. |
|
Locked on 04/24/2022 5:40:39 AM PDT by Religion Moderator, reason:
Childishness |
Posted on 03/06/2022 11:16:06 AM PST by CharlesOConnell
A man commits a serious crime, then he gets released. He has "paid his debt to society". But wait a minute, he's only ready for the half-way house. He's unlikely to get a prestigious job in his new prison suit coat, or any job at all; he has civil impediments, he can't vote or hold certain offices. His crime was serious enough that he won't be presumed to have been completely rehabilitated until he performs a notable service to society, or at least spends many years on the straight and narrow, so that his crime can be truly overlooked or forgotten.
In Catholic faith, your "debt to society" is paid by Jesus Christ on Calvary. It's called "eternal punishment", without Christ it keeps you from going to heaven. Supposing that you do take advantage of His sacrifice, you're truly sorry, have a firm purpose of amendment, if you relapse, you go again for forgiveness (to the Sacrament of Confession).
But your sin leaves a strong trace at another layer of impurity called "temporal punishment due to sin", like the civil impediments facing the half-way house prisoner. Because "nothing impure can enter heaven", there is a place or a state, a condition of purification to render you fit for heaven after Christ has finally saved you from hell. The Catholic Church calls it purgatory.
(Where is it in the bible? Where is the word Trinity in the bible? Where does it say that you only need a personal relationship with Jesus Christ? Many valid principles aren't stated explicitly in the bible, but it does say to "hold fast to the traditions you have learned, whether by word or by letter", because much of the Gospel wasn't written down, as Jesus only wrote in the sand, the majority of the Gospel was taught from word to ear to people who couldn't afford expensive books, the exceptions were what tended to get written down. But the implication that there is a purgatory, is contained in the bible--see the comments.)
The ex-con can receive a pardon or commutation of his probation from a Governor, if he performs some heroic deed, saving numerous lives, or, like Chuck Colson, performs a long-lasting, valuable community service helping numerous people who can't help themselves.
In the Catholic Church there are 2 ways for the residual, temporal effects due to sin to be expiated: suffering in this life, or after life, undergoing purifying suffering along with other people who will finally be saved, but have to suffer for long without the vision of God--that is what causes them their pain.
Their suffering isn't meritorious enough to grant their release, the saints in heaven and those on earth suffering and practicing virtue can pray for the suffering souls in purgatory. In no way is their release by slow transfer of suffering or practice of virtue, "buying heaven". It's a long, excruciating process.
How the misunderstanding arose that Catholics think they can buy their way into heaven, is involved with history more than 500 years old. For a millennium of Christendom between roughly 410 and 1410, there was a Medieval civilization with harmony between faith and government.
Many small farmers would cluster around the manor house of a military lord who would protect them, in exchange for a certain fixed obligation of labor and agricultural produce. In most cases, those "serfs" had much more leisure than factory workers of the industrial revolution; there were a large number of holy days without work, and except for planting and harvesting, there were long stretches of idle time.
Another large sector of the economy surrounded monasteries, where the monks developed most of the farming practices that stabilized the serfs and their manorial lords. The monks who worked those monastic lands were sworn to poverty, so that monasteries built up large accumulations of economic value over decades and centuries of labor.
At the beginning, when lands were being cleared and put into production there weren't prominent town fairs ruled by merchants and bankers. Money wasn't used for sustenance, not even much barter occurred, life was mostly agrarian.
Charity was woven into the economy of monasteries. It was estimated that you only need travel 12 miles in medieval England between monasteries, where you could get a meal and minimal lodging for free, based on need. And the charity was also spiritual, including the ancient Catholic principle of prayer for the dead, which is biblical. (See "prayer for the dead" in the original King James Bible in the comment.)
There were foundations and benefices for praying for the dead, that allowed a person of means to support monasteries' charitable works, and in proportional response the monks would pray for the souls of the donors.
It happened at the close of the middle ages, that militarily strong nobles cast their eyes on the labor value accumulated by the poverty-sworn monks of the monasteries, which those nobles perceived as monetary wealth, especially where gold and jewels had been donated by the devout to adorn churches.
(Protestant writer William Cobbett wrote in his 1824 "A History of the Protestant Reformation in England and Ireland", an anecdote, that an incredibly valuable, hand illustrated bible was stripped of it's bejeweled, gold cover, the much more valuable hand-illumined manuscript, thrown in the mud and trampled by horses hooves by raiders suppressing the monasteries in Henry VIII's England.)
A new religion growing up around this seizure of monastic lands and valuables, that sought to discredit the Catholic Church, spread the black legend that the "sale of indulgences" was abusive. But this was very exceptional. Today the stipend of a Mass said for the dead is $10.
The first sin you ever committed damned you and made the death of Jesus for it a necessity.
It is not and never has been about how many good works one does or if the good outweighs the bad.
The shedding of blood, not works, is the ONLY answer to the sin problem.
You can try all you want but there are several problems.
One is that you’ll never know if it’s enough.
Two, it’s the wrong payment.
Three is that God demands absolute perfection which we can never achieve.
Matthew 5:20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
The pharisees kept the letter of the law flawlessly, and yet were told that they were hellbound.
Works do not, can not, and will not ever make one acceptable in God’s sight. Especially the sin tainted or corrupted ones we have to offer Him.
Romans 7 all over again.
I always liked ole Chuck. He is in a better place now. See you in the OSAS clouds bro, as we have that grand reunion in the sky.
Remember, “For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.” I am rather looking forward to that. 👍
.
👍
You read 'endure unto the end' and presume you must attain that enduring to the end so that God must grant what you believe He is promising. Pride on display in such an insidious stealth.
The flesh of ALL HUMANS will be discarded. ALL HUMANS will be resurrected, some at the Apostasia and some at the Great White Throne of Judgment. What you presume is a description of the Great White Throne, somehow twisting that to be purgaory is in fact an event which happens IN HEAVEN for ONLY those whom God has Raptured away from this Earth before pouring out His wrath. But you as a Catholic trained mind cannot comprehend that distinction and I am at a loss to be compassionate enough to try any further to inform you. AMPU has plans to grab Ebb on the way outta here/on the way up. Sadly, it is not possible for me to grab you by the scruff of your neck and try the same, so much with your striving / bootstrapping imagination.
And just so you know, when you try those 'tsk tsk, you're falling short of godliness with your lack of compassion' stealthy accusations you are echoing satanic methodology. And that, sadly, is not surprising since Peter fell into the same trap.
I read his book the kingdom of the cults. I spoke with him by phone several times on his Bible answer man program. He made me laugh when he said, Next up, we have Mark from Travis Air Force Base, California. 😁 I asked him if he had ever heard the the Iglesia ni Cristo (Philippine church of Christ) He said yes, and said they were a very dangerous cult. I said my wife was an ex member of that cult. He made me laugh again when he said if I wanted to start a group called ex Iglesia ni Cristo for Christ, to let him know. 😀
Yep.
That’s too funny (and very interesting, btw).
In his church yard in Olney, England, the composer of this great hymn of faith was laid to rest. On his stone, this inscription:
John Newton, clerk, once an infidel and libertine, a servant of slaves in Africa, was, by the rich mercy of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, preserved, restored, pardoned, and appointed to preach the faith he had long labored to destroy.
From my profile page.
ONE JOHN CHAPTER THREE VERSE NINE. Have you actually read it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7IkER9XDFU
I had the distinct blessing to hear this sermon years ago at Shades Mountain Independent Church. It was more precious than gold in my life then and since.
We are going to disagree on what Christ has asked us to do.
Murph listen. There isn’t one thing that you can do that pleases God. NOT ONE THING. I am not saying righteous living is bad. What I am saying is by itself, you might think this will get you to Heaven. It won’t. It will get you a hot place in Hell, so stop trying to merit Heaven. You (and all of us) have already failed to qualify.
I was never a self satisfied Catholic. I was absolutely sure I was going to Hell, as a Catholic, and I hated it. I didn’t know what to do about it, till a number of guys came along, all active duty Air Force. They didn’t talk to me about any particular church. They showed me how to do what Christ asked, how to become a born again believer. I had been so steeped in Catholic doctrine, that it took me about a whole month to realize what OSAS meant.
Since none of my friends ever told me what church to attend, I kept going to mass. I started reading the Bible too, and slowly it dawned on me, that what I was reading, was different from what I was being told. I didn’t start out with the idea of leaving the Catholic Church. I just couldn’t reconcile the scriptures with the church, so I left.
So, stop trying to lead a good life, to merit Heaven. All it will do, is get you a LONG stint in the lake that burns. 🔥 if you would feel more comfortable in the lake that burns, 🔥then by all means, totally ignore me. No one can help you.
You said it yourself, we always fall short. Stop right there bro. Stop right there. Don’t read anything else into it. How short of the goal can we fall you ask? I say the fall is total, complete, irrevocable, and eternal. All it takes, is ONE tiny little sin, only ONCE, and that’s where you and I stand. How many sins did Adam and Eve commit? Only one, and they ended up in the same boat.
I don’t care what church you do or do not attend, if you want to escape the lake that burns 🔥 you will have to do it the same way all the rest of us did. God will make no exception for you. I hope you take the blinders off your eyes and pay attention. If not? Well, then there is a certain looking for judgment. Don’t take part in it bro. Just don’t.
You don’t nderstand who the Nicolaitans were, either. They are the religionists who split their constituents into two classes: a clergy to dominate the “lay” class.
God sees the inward parts, and as a loving parent will work on those to conform His children into the image of His Son. HOWEVER, the process cannot be run backasswards; you cannot evidence righteousness change BEFORE believing and being born again. You might ask why?... Well, because the born again exhibit the character of God Who is then abiding in them when they are born again. One cannot exhibit the character of God without the Life of God, and in our epoch that life is abiding IN the born again.
If David was a man after God's own heart, yet David committed adultery and murder, how was he a man after God's own heart? Remembering that when David lived the Holy Spirit was not yet an abiding force in a man, David's repentence and confession touched God's Heart. In this age when the Holy Spirit lives in us who are born again, the same process is at work, as we repent and confess TO HIM. Not to a pedophile priest or dead soul priest who is merely fulfilling ORG work, but confess to GOD.
And ya know what, if we do not confess to Whom is abiding in us, there is severe chastisement. We should know that from what happened to Anaias and Sapphira. And yes, it is very possibly what happened to Ravi Zacharias. Whom God loves He chastens. If one skips along un-chastised it is very possible they are none of His.
You tried to hide your assertion that I might think I am saved because I think I am, bt not using my name, directly. Well, I will tell you, I KNOW I AM HIS because He has put me through chastisement you can not even imagine. But He loves me that much! I know I am born again because I believe completely in His Promises. He is due the glory, and not one yot or tittle to me. Can you claim the same? I want you to do so and stop having doubts that rob you of the joy He wants for you. You cannot live up to His Righteousness. He didn't expect you to and that is why HE comes to abide in your born again spirit, if so be that He has birthed you from above.
Wrong.
The way we act demonstrates whether we have believed and are saved.
We accept God’s gift to us as He told us by Baptism, our faith and belief in Jesus and all His revealed Truths, by not dying in state of mortal sin, Keeping His Commandments, consume the Eucharist, our works and our words, etc.
That's not what God through His Holy Spirit inspired word tells us.
HE tells us it's by faith, by believing.
John 1:10-13 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 3:3-8 Jesus answered him,“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
John 3:14-18 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
John 20:30-31 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
Acts 16:27-31 When the jailer woke and saw that the prison doors were open, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself, supposing that the prisoners had escaped. But Paul cried with a loud voice, “Do not harm yourself, for we are all here.” And the jailer called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas. Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
Romans 3:20-30 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
Romans 4:1-25 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”
Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression. That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.” He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah's womb. No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.
Romans 5:1-2 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Romans 5:9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
Romans 10:9-13 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
No requirement of baptism, Catholic communion, doing good works, etc.
Simply believing and one is born again and THEN produces good works and obedience.
Dead plants produce no fruit and dead souls produce no Fruit of the Spirit.
Are you sure that you have true faith or just false hope that you will be saved?
Catholicism gives no hope of being saved. Just a kind of I hope so, I'll find out when it's too late to do anything about it, kind of what they
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.