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Locked on 04/24/2022 5:40:39 AM PDT by Religion Moderator, reason:
Childishness |
Posted on 03/06/2022 11:16:06 AM PST by CharlesOConnell
A man commits a serious crime, then he gets released. He has "paid his debt to society". But wait a minute, he's only ready for the half-way house. He's unlikely to get a prestigious job in his new prison suit coat, or any job at all; he has civil impediments, he can't vote or hold certain offices. His crime was serious enough that he won't be presumed to have been completely rehabilitated until he performs a notable service to society, or at least spends many years on the straight and narrow, so that his crime can be truly overlooked or forgotten.
In Catholic faith, your "debt to society" is paid by Jesus Christ on Calvary. It's called "eternal punishment", without Christ it keeps you from going to heaven. Supposing that you do take advantage of His sacrifice, you're truly sorry, have a firm purpose of amendment, if you relapse, you go again for forgiveness (to the Sacrament of Confession).
But your sin leaves a strong trace at another layer of impurity called "temporal punishment due to sin", like the civil impediments facing the half-way house prisoner. Because "nothing impure can enter heaven", there is a place or a state, a condition of purification to render you fit for heaven after Christ has finally saved you from hell. The Catholic Church calls it purgatory.
(Where is it in the bible? Where is the word Trinity in the bible? Where does it say that you only need a personal relationship with Jesus Christ? Many valid principles aren't stated explicitly in the bible, but it does say to "hold fast to the traditions you have learned, whether by word or by letter", because much of the Gospel wasn't written down, as Jesus only wrote in the sand, the majority of the Gospel was taught from word to ear to people who couldn't afford expensive books, the exceptions were what tended to get written down. But the implication that there is a purgatory, is contained in the bible--see the comments.)
The ex-con can receive a pardon or commutation of his probation from a Governor, if he performs some heroic deed, saving numerous lives, or, like Chuck Colson, performs a long-lasting, valuable community service helping numerous people who can't help themselves.
In the Catholic Church there are 2 ways for the residual, temporal effects due to sin to be expiated: suffering in this life, or after life, undergoing purifying suffering along with other people who will finally be saved, but have to suffer for long without the vision of God--that is what causes them their pain.
Their suffering isn't meritorious enough to grant their release, the saints in heaven and those on earth suffering and practicing virtue can pray for the suffering souls in purgatory. In no way is their release by slow transfer of suffering or practice of virtue, "buying heaven". It's a long, excruciating process.
How the misunderstanding arose that Catholics think they can buy their way into heaven, is involved with history more than 500 years old. For a millennium of Christendom between roughly 410 and 1410, there was a Medieval civilization with harmony between faith and government.
Many small farmers would cluster around the manor house of a military lord who would protect them, in exchange for a certain fixed obligation of labor and agricultural produce. In most cases, those "serfs" had much more leisure than factory workers of the industrial revolution; there were a large number of holy days without work, and except for planting and harvesting, there were long stretches of idle time.
Another large sector of the economy surrounded monasteries, where the monks developed most of the farming practices that stabilized the serfs and their manorial lords. The monks who worked those monastic lands were sworn to poverty, so that monasteries built up large accumulations of economic value over decades and centuries of labor.
At the beginning, when lands were being cleared and put into production there weren't prominent town fairs ruled by merchants and bankers. Money wasn't used for sustenance, not even much barter occurred, life was mostly agrarian.
Charity was woven into the economy of monasteries. It was estimated that you only need travel 12 miles in medieval England between monasteries, where you could get a meal and minimal lodging for free, based on need. And the charity was also spiritual, including the ancient Catholic principle of prayer for the dead, which is biblical. (See "prayer for the dead" in the original King James Bible in the comment.)
There were foundations and benefices for praying for the dead, that allowed a person of means to support monasteries' charitable works, and in proportional response the monks would pray for the souls of the donors.
It happened at the close of the middle ages, that militarily strong nobles cast their eyes on the labor value accumulated by the poverty-sworn monks of the monasteries, which those nobles perceived as monetary wealth, especially where gold and jewels had been donated by the devout to adorn churches.
(Protestant writer William Cobbett wrote in his 1824 "A History of the Protestant Reformation in England and Ireland", an anecdote, that an incredibly valuable, hand illustrated bible was stripped of it's bejeweled, gold cover, the much more valuable hand-illumined manuscript, thrown in the mud and trampled by horses hooves by raiders suppressing the monasteries in Henry VIII's England.)
A new religion growing up around this seizure of monastic lands and valuables, that sought to discredit the Catholic Church, spread the black legend that the "sale of indulgences" was abusive. But this was very exceptional. Today the stipend of a Mass said for the dead is $10.
—>I know I’ve already won the discussion when all you do is attack me personally, and then avoid the points I’ve made like the plague.
… that’s one (delusional) way to frame it! 😂😂😂
Better than before.
But not quite addressing the core arguments of your opponents beyond gainsaying, nor quite addressing the ENTIRETY of the Scriptural arguments. You need more than a few verses and counters; you need to be aware of the entire argument that Paul/Jesus/etc. is making, not just a few verses that you claim supports your POV.
If I believed that you were sincere, I’d be happy to engage beyond that.
But considering how you slid right back into your ragepost-like rants about Saturdays, I personally don’t think you are sincere.
Seems to me you’re more interested in browbeating people than genuine pursuit of truth.
Are all SDAs cultists? I don’t know any personally, so I don’t know for sure. I have never read any of Ellen G White’s writings. It looks like, now, there is no way on God’s green earth I ever will. I don’t plan on ever taking part in something like an investigative judgment. That sounds eerily similar to the Catholic purgatory. I don’t know if that came from White’s writings, but I won’t waste my time, trying to figure it out. I really couldn’t care less where it came from, it’s false doctrine. Seems to be a lot of that around here. See you in the OSAS, pre trib rapture. 😀😊
Nope. I only need one of the many to disprove OSAS. Romans 8:8-12 ALONE is a slam dunk against OSAS and friends of Ravi, so is Hebrews 10:26-29. So is Revelation 2:1-5. These are all SLAM DUNKS against OSAS.
Posts 1510-1514
There are still many other texts not yet pulled from that second video I posted, that I haven’t even posted.
Deny it all you want. That won’t change the truth that OSAS is a false doctrine of the Gnostics, and specifically the Nicolaitans. THAT IS HISTORIC FACT. Look it up (I actually posted it).
——>I don’t plan on ever taking part in something like an investigative judgment.
Sorry, but you don’t have a choice.
Oh, I see.
So in Phil’s False World, you’re allowed to ignore Scripture that you don’t like.
Not a world I want to live in, let me tell you.
The post I’m replying to is *hilarious* guys.
Phil here is boasting about how he’s ignoring the Word of God if he doesn’t like what it says.
Hard to get more culty than that, let me tell you!
The Sabbath commandment is only one of many points of doctrinal error that your side takes. We’ve gone back and forth for how many posts/threads about OSAS, and I mention the Sabbath maybe once/twice, and I’m not sincere? No, that’s just your excuse to stop the conversation because you know I right and my evidence is irrefutable. If Paul, in Romans 8, 1 Cor 6, Eph 5, clearly tells saved believers that they will lose salvation if they engage in sins of the flesh, salvation is CONDITIONAL. There is no way around that. The false doctrine of OSAS is proven just that...FALSE.
Thank you. I can feel every day that God is answering those prayers and it greatly comforts and strengthens me as I eagerly await the return of Christ with His saints (including my beloved) when together we will be raised incorruptible and so shall we ever be with the Lord. This time on earth will seem but a mere moment compared to eternity.
——>Phil here is boasting about how he’s ignoring the Word of God if he doesn’t like what it says.
I suppose you would have to point out which part of the Word of God.
+1
Same message to you that I sent ampu: I know I’ve already won the discussion when all you do is attack me personally, and then avoid the points I’ve made, like the plague.
Sorry Phil; no respect for someone who boasts about ignoring the Word of God. (That’s you, by the way.)
I’d say that’s much worse than Saturday worship, especially since Saturday worship was explicitly done away with in Scripture after Christ’s resurrection.
But of course, I’d expect someone who brags about how much he ignores the Word of God not to know that.
+1
It is the hallmark of a cult - as well as the unschooled - to pick and choose, throwing out everything that disagrees with what the cult teaches.
+ the bluster and self-righteousness and anger.
——>Sorry Phil; no respect for someone who boasts about ignoring the Word of God.
still waiting to hear which part
I know I’ve already won the discussion
***
HAH, says the man who had to get spanked by JimRob because he wouldn’t stop attacking me personally and ignoring my points.
Methinks our SDA is still being more than a little hypocritical!
Uh oh. Now there is irrefutable evidence in False World.
that would actually make you a STRAWMAN. How ironic.
LOL. Whatever bro. Have a nice forever. 🔥
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