Catholics Don't Believe You Can Earn Your Way to Heaven

Tradition | 03-06-2022 | CharlesOconnell

[CharlesOConnell]

A man commits a serious crime, then he gets released. He has "paid his debt to society". But wait a minute, he's only ready for the half-way house. He's unlikely to get a prestigious job in his new prison suit coat, or any job at all; he has civil impediments, he can't vote or hold certain offices. His crime was serious enough that he won't be presumed to have been completely rehabilitated until he performs a notable service to society, or at least spends many years on the straight and narrow, so that his crime can be truly overlooked or forgotten.

In Catholic faith, your "debt to society" is paid by Jesus Christ on Calvary. It's called "eternal punishment", without Christ it keeps you from going to heaven. Supposing that you do take advantage of His sacrifice, you're truly sorry, have a firm purpose of amendment, if you relapse, you go again for forgiveness (to the Sacrament of Confession).

But your sin leaves a strong trace at another layer of impurity called "temporal punishment due to sin", like the civil impediments facing the half-way house prisoner. Because "nothing impure can enter heaven", there is a place or a state, a condition of purification to render you fit for heaven after Christ has finally saved you from hell. The Catholic Church calls it purgatory.

(Where is it in the bible? Where is the word Trinity in the bible? Where does it say that you only need a personal relationship with Jesus Christ? Many valid principles aren't stated explicitly in the bible, but it does say to "hold fast to the traditions you have learned, whether by word or by letter", because much of the Gospel wasn't written down, as Jesus only wrote in the sand, the majority of the Gospel was taught from word to ear to people who couldn't afford expensive books, the exceptions were what tended to get written down. But the implication that there is a purgatory, is contained in the bible--see the comments.)

The ex-con can receive a pardon or commutation of his probation from a Governor, if he performs some heroic deed, saving numerous lives, or, like Chuck Colson, performs a long-lasting, valuable community service helping numerous people who can't help themselves.

In the Catholic Church there are 2 ways for the residual, temporal effects due to sin to be expiated: suffering in this life, or after life, undergoing purifying suffering along with other people who will finally be saved, but have to suffer for long without the vision of God--that is what causes them their pain.

Their suffering isn't meritorious enough to grant their release, the saints in heaven and those on earth suffering and practicing virtue can pray for the suffering souls in purgatory. In no way is their release by slow transfer of suffering or practice of virtue, "buying heaven". It's a long, excruciating process.

How the misunderstanding arose that Catholics think they can buy their way into heaven, is involved with history more than 500 years old. For a millennium of Christendom between roughly 410 and 1410, there was a Medieval civilization with harmony between faith and government.

Many small farmers would cluster around the manor house of a military lord who would protect them, in exchange for a certain fixed obligation of labor and agricultural produce. In most cases, those "serfs" had much more leisure than factory workers of the industrial revolution; there were a large number of holy days without work, and except for planting and harvesting, there were long stretches of idle time.

Another large sector of the economy surrounded monasteries, where the monks developed most of the farming practices that stabilized the serfs and their manorial lords. The monks who worked those monastic lands were sworn to poverty, so that monasteries built up large accumulations of economic value over decades and centuries of labor.

At the beginning, when lands were being cleared and put into production there weren't prominent town fairs ruled by merchants and bankers. Money wasn't used for sustenance, not even much barter occurred, life was mostly agrarian.

Charity was woven into the economy of monasteries. It was estimated that you only need travel 12 miles in medieval England between monasteries, where you could get a meal and minimal lodging for free, based on need. And the charity was also spiritual, including the ancient Catholic principle of prayer for the dead, which is biblical. (See "prayer for the dead" in the original King James Bible in the comment.)

There were foundations and benefices for praying for the dead, that allowed a person of means to support monasteries' charitable works, and in proportional response the monks would pray for the souls of the donors.

It happened at the close of the middle ages, that militarily strong nobles cast their eyes on the labor value accumulated by the poverty-sworn monks of the monasteries, which those nobles perceived as monetary wealth, especially where gold and jewels had been donated by the devout to adorn churches.

(Protestant writer William Cobbett wrote in his 1824 "A History of the Protestant Reformation in England and Ireland", an anecdote, that an incredibly valuable, hand illustrated bible was stripped of it's bejeweled, gold cover, the much more valuable hand-illumined manuscript, thrown in the mud and trampled by horses hooves by raiders suppressing the monasteries in Henry VIII's England.)

A new religion growing up around this seizure of monastic lands and valuables, that sought to discredit the Catholic Church, spread the black legend that the "sale of indulgences" was abusive. But this was very exceptional. Today the stipend of a Mass said for the dead is $10.

[Elsie]

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

'Tis amazing how many folks miss this verse.

[Elsie]

... you will reject/refuse out of hand ANY answer that isn’t in agreement with your own...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

[Mark17]

you will reject/refuse out of hand ANY answer that isn’t in agreement with your own...

In reference to the plan of salvation, ABSOLUTELY. Anything else, is open for discussion.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Bacon Placemarker

[MHGinTN]

Cereal and milk placemarker ... coffee next

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Having great coffee now! ☕️

Enjoy!

[aMorePerfectUnion]

2 Peter 3:17 : The possibility of loss of salvation is not in view, but loss of steadfastness is.

The danger was false teachers, like that Falseworld religion.

Best

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Colossians 2:14

“…He gave life together with Him, having in grace forgiven you all your trespasses, having obliterated the hand-written document consisting of ordinances, the one [which was] against us, which was directly opposed to us, and He removed it out of the midst with the result that it is no longer there, having nailed it to the Cross”

Grateful the debt of my sin was obliterated on the Cross

[MHGinTN]

The more I think on it the more I like you chrysalis analogy for the spirit separated from the soul when one is born again.

I have use the analogy of a bucket, filling with water until the water spills over the side into the surrounding area. Specifically I used the analogy of a canvas bucket, like the ones used in the WWII vehicles for carrying water to their radiators of their engines (tanks, Jeeps, trucks, tract vehicles) I envisioned the spirit as a flat canvas bucket until water is filling it up.

Adding your analogy of the chrysalis, I can see how the Holy Spirit is not in contact with the sin nature of the old flesh when in the chrysalis even as the chrysalis is ferried along by the flesh (the physical body and behavior mechanism called soul) and when sufficient spiritual growth is reached the contents of the chrysalis begins to seep out to the soul, changing the behavior of the body soul connection.

So what do you think, imardmd1 and metmom, is that a neat way to characterize what God's Spirit does in abiding in our born again spirit?

[Philsworld]

Does that mean that all sin present and future is forgiven automatically, because of Grace? No, it certainly does not. All of you seem to think that a once saved person, who then reverts back to sin, ESPECIALLY sin of the flesh, is immune from not entering heaven. OSAS is final, right? There is nothing that will keep a OSAS person out of heaven, right? No amount of sin, because it was already "CANCELLED" at the moment of Grace, right? (you certainly do not understand what that means) Once judged at the moment of Grace, and forever judged, right? In particular, MHG says that the "flesh" will continue to sin, but the Spirit can't. They are two separate entities. The flesh will keep on sinning, but that won't affect the salvation of a "born-againer". Let's see what Paul CLEARLY tells us about the saved who revert back to, or take up sin, (after Grace). Paul gives us warning after warning, and it completely contradicts the false doctrine of OSAS. Note carefully that Paul is talking to SAVED BELIEVERS.

Romans 8: 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

1 Cor 6: 9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Ephesians 5:1Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; 2And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet smelling savour. 3But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; 4Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. 5For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. 7Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

Paul is clearly telling SAVED BY GRACE believers that if they do these things, and continue in them, THEY WILL LOSE THEIR SALVATION. Do you know who taught OSAS and sin of the flesh, as much as you want to, because it doesn't matter what the "flesh" does? You guessed it, the Nicolaitans, who were Gnostics. That's where OSAS comes from...Gnosticism. Irenaeus points that out in "Against Heresies" You are all teaching a Gnostic lie (heresy).

[Philsworld]

Again, no.

Here, Jesus is talking about SAVED BELIEVERS, who are in jeopardy of losing their salvation, unless they "remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works...but this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate." This is NOT OSAS.

Revelation 2: 1Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; 2I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: 3And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. 4Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. 5Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. 6But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

[Philsworld]

clearly not OSAS

The writer of the book of Hebrews gives scores of specific admonitions against falling away from the faith. Hebrews 10:23 opens up a line of argument against the once-saved, always-saved position that no one can refute. The passage begins this way: “Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering.” And after that, admonition is given those who might be tempted to absent themselves from the assembly of the believers. Apparently, this is one of the first signs of slipping backward. The author of this epistle, and I think it was Paul, includes himself in the warning. He writes, “For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?” That is from verses 26 through 29. The people described here had been sanctified by the truth, but fell away into willful apostasy.

Now the last few verses of the chapter warn against the casting away of their confidence. Notice this carefully! “Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompense of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. . . . Now the just shall live by faith; but if any man draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.” Verses 35 to 39. Now how could anybody state any more clearly the fact that one’s eternal salvation is conditional on his remaining steadfast to the very end? Unless there were a possibility that one might cast away his confidence, that he might draw back unto perdition, why would this man of God sound such a warning as he did?

https://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/book/e/17/t/can-a-saved-man-choose-to-be-lost-

[Philsworld]

SALVATION IS CONDITIONAL.

1 Tim 4: 1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

Luke 22: 31And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: 32But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Hebrews 6: 4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Matthew 10: 22And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.>/font>

Matthew 24: 13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mark 13: 13And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

1 Cor 15: 1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

Romans 11: 19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

1 Peter 1: 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith

[Philsworld]

---->2 Peter 3:17 : The possibility of loss of salvation is not in view, but loss of steadfastness is.

Only if you hold to the Gnostic doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which all OSAS believers do. The verse is in complete agreement with CONDITIONAL SALVATION.

17Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness.

Antonyms: disloyalty, faithlessness, falseness…

[Philsworld]

——>And yet, neither of you ever address the Scripture used to refute your interpretations

How’s that for scripture?

[aMorePerfectUnion]

False religionist says what??

Surely by now you must know that anyone involved in a false religion is the last place I’d go to understand God’s truth???

I do feel for you that the SDA Jesus is so very weak that he couldn’t die for all your sins and left you on your own to try to keep the Law, that no one ever kept.

But you chose it bro...

[Philsworld]

I know I’ve already won the discussion when all you do is attack me personally, and then avoid the points I’ve made like the plague.

[Philsworld]

No, he did say it. I should have pinged you to posts 1510-1514.

[Philsworld]

Don't you think that it's even possible that you are wrong? These texts have nothing to do with once and for all judged at the moment of grace.

1 Cor 11:31. Judge. Gr. diakrinō “to discern,” “to discriminate.” Diakrinō is translated “discerning” in v. 29. The word signifies self-judgment, a diagnosis of one’s own moral condition in the light of God’s standard. If believers would scrutinize strictly their own attitudes and conduct and take part in the ordinance with a proper reverence, they would not come under the condemnation of God.

Be judged. That is, by God. A proper self-examination would save believers from divine judgment. The experience of the Corinthian believers is recorded for our learning. If Christians would remember this experience of the early church at Corinth, and be scrupulous about examining their thoughts and feelings and motives, they would derive much greater blessing from partaking of the ordinance, and would avoid meriting the displeasure of God.

32. Judged. The sufferings that the Lord permitted to come upon the Corinthians because of their careless celebration of the ordinance were a merciful means of dealing with their failures. The disciplining was intended to save them from continuing in such transgression. It is better for us to be “chastened of the Lord” in this life, and be led to change our way from that which is not according to His will to that which He approves of, than to continue in sin and be lost eternally (see 1 Cor. 5:5; 1 Tim. 1:20). Suffering results in refining and purifying the life of the true believer (see Heb. 12:5–11).

Condemned with the world. This refers to the final condemnatory judgment, from which there is no reprieve. The “world” comprises all who refuse to repent of their sins, to humble themselves before God, and to accept Jesus as their Saviour. These are accounted worthy of eternal death (see Ps. 34:16; Eze. 18:24; Mal. 4:1, 2; 2 Thess. 1:8, 9).

[Philsworld]

——>but loss of steadfastness is.

A loss of steadfastness IN WHAT? WHICH LEADS TO WHAT?