Catholics Don't Believe You Can Earn Your Way to Heaven

Tradition | 03-06-2022 | CharlesOconnell

[CharlesOConnell]

A man commits a serious crime, then he gets released. He has "paid his debt to society". But wait a minute, he's only ready for the half-way house. He's unlikely to get a prestigious job in his new prison suit coat, or any job at all; he has civil impediments, he can't vote or hold certain offices. His crime was serious enough that he won't be presumed to have been completely rehabilitated until he performs a notable service to society, or at least spends many years on the straight and narrow, so that his crime can be truly overlooked or forgotten.

In Catholic faith, your "debt to society" is paid by Jesus Christ on Calvary. It's called "eternal punishment", without Christ it keeps you from going to heaven. Supposing that you do take advantage of His sacrifice, you're truly sorry, have a firm purpose of amendment, if you relapse, you go again for forgiveness (to the Sacrament of Confession).

But your sin leaves a strong trace at another layer of impurity called "temporal punishment due to sin", like the civil impediments facing the half-way house prisoner. Because "nothing impure can enter heaven", there is a place or a state, a condition of purification to render you fit for heaven after Christ has finally saved you from hell. The Catholic Church calls it purgatory.

(Where is it in the bible? Where is the word Trinity in the bible? Where does it say that you only need a personal relationship with Jesus Christ? Many valid principles aren't stated explicitly in the bible, but it does say to "hold fast to the traditions you have learned, whether by word or by letter", because much of the Gospel wasn't written down, as Jesus only wrote in the sand, the majority of the Gospel was taught from word to ear to people who couldn't afford expensive books, the exceptions were what tended to get written down. But the implication that there is a purgatory, is contained in the bible--see the comments.)

The ex-con can receive a pardon or commutation of his probation from a Governor, if he performs some heroic deed, saving numerous lives, or, like Chuck Colson, performs a long-lasting, valuable community service helping numerous people who can't help themselves.

In the Catholic Church there are 2 ways for the residual, temporal effects due to sin to be expiated: suffering in this life, or after life, undergoing purifying suffering along with other people who will finally be saved, but have to suffer for long without the vision of God--that is what causes them their pain.

Their suffering isn't meritorious enough to grant their release, the saints in heaven and those on earth suffering and practicing virtue can pray for the suffering souls in purgatory. In no way is their release by slow transfer of suffering or practice of virtue, "buying heaven". It's a long, excruciating process.

How the misunderstanding arose that Catholics think they can buy their way into heaven, is involved with history more than 500 years old. For a millennium of Christendom between roughly 410 and 1410, there was a Medieval civilization with harmony between faith and government.

Many small farmers would cluster around the manor house of a military lord who would protect them, in exchange for a certain fixed obligation of labor and agricultural produce. In most cases, those "serfs" had much more leisure than factory workers of the industrial revolution; there were a large number of holy days without work, and except for planting and harvesting, there were long stretches of idle time.

Another large sector of the economy surrounded monasteries, where the monks developed most of the farming practices that stabilized the serfs and their manorial lords. The monks who worked those monastic lands were sworn to poverty, so that monasteries built up large accumulations of economic value over decades and centuries of labor.

At the beginning, when lands were being cleared and put into production there weren't prominent town fairs ruled by merchants and bankers. Money wasn't used for sustenance, not even much barter occurred, life was mostly agrarian.

Charity was woven into the economy of monasteries. It was estimated that you only need travel 12 miles in medieval England between monasteries, where you could get a meal and minimal lodging for free, based on need. And the charity was also spiritual, including the ancient Catholic principle of prayer for the dead, which is biblical. (See "prayer for the dead" in the original King James Bible in the comment.)

There were foundations and benefices for praying for the dead, that allowed a person of means to support monasteries' charitable works, and in proportional response the monks would pray for the souls of the donors.

It happened at the close of the middle ages, that militarily strong nobles cast their eyes on the labor value accumulated by the poverty-sworn monks of the monasteries, which those nobles perceived as monetary wealth, especially where gold and jewels had been donated by the devout to adorn churches.

(Protestant writer William Cobbett wrote in his 1824 "A History of the Protestant Reformation in England and Ireland", an anecdote, that an incredibly valuable, hand illustrated bible was stripped of it's bejeweled, gold cover, the much more valuable hand-illumined manuscript, thrown in the mud and trampled by horses hooves by raiders suppressing the monasteries in Henry VIII's England.)

A new religion growing up around this seizure of monastic lands and valuables, that sought to discredit the Catholic Church, spread the black legend that the "sale of indulgences" was abusive. But this was very exceptional. Today the stipend of a Mass said for the dead is $10.

[MurphsLaw]

1000 or bust!
No need to share what you believe for my sake... you'll just bring more straw men to life...
Also for the reason as you said, you're more a Mish mash "of a Lutheran non-Calvinist single-predestination guy."
I don't even know what that is supposed to mean in the "anything-but"-Catholic
world, and I doubt it is the real choice among all othe competing brands- or "denomination" or whatever is the PC term to describe the various faith ideals currently represented.

A better explanation that you could share, is why what you believe yours is closer to the Fullness of the Truth than all others...

[Elsie]

Deuteronomy 14:21

Ye shall not eat of anything that dieth of itself: thou shalt give it unto the stranger that is in thy gates, that he may eat it; or thou mayest sell it unto an alien: for thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.

 

 

The REAL reason Mikey died...

 

 

...he'll eat anything.

[Elsie]

999 is merely 666 turned on it’s head.

[Elsie]

I pray that in the end I will have been found worthy, as I now continue to abide in His love.

I hope you are to.

What do you consider the cutoff grade for worthiness to be?

[Elsie]

#14 in the reply above it.

[Elsie]

Deuteronomy 14:1 - You are the children of the LORD your God

[Luircin]

Yeah, I figured you weren’t interested in the truth.

Thanks for confirming it before I wasted my time throwing pearls before swine.

I will make sure that I rub it in every time you post to me that you have outright said that you prefer falsehood to truth.

Roman Catholicism is still the Whore of Babylon and will lead you right into Hell.

[Luircin]

I do admit it’s funny. You condescend to me about “truth” in the same post telling me that you prefer falsehoods.

The Catholic mind, ladies and gentlemen.

[Luircin]

It’s AMAZING how eagerly the Catholics here glom onto people whose confessions include a false prophet just because they’re arguing against their greatest enemy: us.

Works-righteousness people stick together I guess.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

I can say this appears accurate…

[MHGinTN]

Isn’t works-righteousness an aspect of every cult?

[Elsie]

Haven’t parents threatened children to ‘be good’ or else for all of time?

[aMorePerfectUnion]

—> Isn’t works-righteousness an aspect of every cult?

Yes. The cults are Satan’s Fashion Show.

Every so many years, a new cult arises that gets one or more of these wrong. They come into and out of fashion.

(Mormonism seems to get them all wrong)

There are only so many things you can pervert to keep people out of heaven:

The Gospel of Grace
The Godhood of Christ
The sacrifice of Christ
The existence of God
The character and attributes of God
God’s Triune nature
The inspiration and sufficiency of Scripture
Etc.

One way to get them wrong is to add to them or substitute something else, or to change them..

[Philsworld]

Deuteronomy 14:1 - You are the children of the LORD your God (Rightly divide that...)

-------------------------------------------------------------

CONDITIONAL

Exo 19:8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

Deu 5:27 Go thou near, and hear all that the LORD our God shall say: and speak thou unto us all that the LORD our God shall speak unto thee; and we will hear it, and do it. Deu 5:28 And the LORD heard the voice of your words, when ye spake unto me; and the LORD said unto me, I have heard the voice of the words of this people, which they have spoken unto thee: they have well said all that they have spoken. Deu 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

Deu 31:16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.

Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Eccl 12:13Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

[Philsworld]

Common. The use of the word “common” in the sense of “impure” according to the Mosaic ritual, reflected the Jewish attitude toward Gentiles. All who were not Jews were viewed as the “common” rabble, shut out from God’s covenant. The practices of these spiritual outcasts, different from those of the chosen people, were called “common” things, and as these “common” things were generally those forbidden by the law, all such prohibited things or actions became known as “common.” Similarly, when men’s hands were defiled ceremonially, they were known as “common hands” (a literal translation of the expression rendered “defiled … hands” in Mark 7:2).

15. What God hath cleansed. In the vision clean and unclean beasts stood on the same footing, being let down from heaven in the same sheet. They represented thus a general mixing of things, among which none was to be called common, or unclean. In interpreting the vision one should recognize that, although it was given in the setting of physical hunger (v. 10), it did not concern food, it concerned men. It was for the souls of men, of every kind everywhere, that Peter was to experience a hunger. Having learned this lesson, at least in part, Peter declared, “God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean” (v. 28). Gentiles, ordinarily considered unclean, were awaiting the spiritual ministration of Peter. He must not hesitate to serve them. They were no longer to be considered unclean.

[MHGinTN]

The question seems to settle down to "Is salvation conditional upon behavior by the flesh AFTER one is born again, born from above?"

Some cults will argue on the means to be saved, to be given eternal life, such as the Catholics teaching eternal life is ONLY something that comes after death and/or a stay in Purgatory. The SDA cultist argues that faith is the means to salvation and one receives salvation by Grace alone, but the issue of eternal life is a muddy area which hangs in the balance of one's behavior after receiving God's Grace.

Since I want to choose my words carefully in this issue, I will pause here for the above assertions to sink in for readers. Then I will continue with much more that God's Spirit has ruminated in my heart for a few days. Expect cultists to jump in during the pause, to try and takeover the issue for the spirit that is impelling them, which spirit opposeth God's Grace. Going for coffee ...

[Philsworld]

1 Peter 1:14As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: 15But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 16Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

15. But. Gr. alla, a strong adversative that contrasts the “former lusts” with the holy life required of Christians.

Called. See on Rom. 8:28, 30; 1 Cor. 1:9.

Holy. Gr. hagios (see on Rom. 1:7). The first clause of this verse may be paraphrased, “But contrarily, in harmony with that Holy One who called you.” God is absolutely holy; no sin or defilement can exist in His presence (cf. Lev. 11:44; 19:2; 20:7).

Be ye holy. That is, for your part be ye holy once for all. The earnest Christian decisively settles his standard of conduct; no future unholiness is contemplated. Man was made in the image of God (Gen. 1:26, 27) but lost the likeness through sin. The purpose of the gospel is to restore the divine image in man, that he may be holy as his Creator is holy.

Conversation. Gr. anastrophē, “conduct” (see on Eph. 4:22). Note the comprehensive nature of the standard held before the Christian—he is to be holy in all his conduct; every aspect of his life must be sanctified (cf. 1 Thess. 5:23).

16. It is written. The ultimate authority to which the NT writers uniformly appeal is the OT (cf. on Matt. 2:5; Acts 2:16; Rom. 1:17; etc.).

Be ye holy. Quoted from Lev. 11:44; 19:2; 20:7. Textual evidence is here divided (cf. p. 10) between the use of the imperative “be ye” and the future “ye shall be,” but the intent is the same in that Peter is calling all Christians to holy living.

[Philsworld]

The question seems to settle down to “Is salvation conditional upon behavior by the flesh AFTER one is born again, born from above?”

---

Or, in other words, is OSAS correct biblical doctrine. You and your friends have made your erroneous point ad nauseum. “No amount of sin will keep a born-againer out of heaven.” There is nothing that you, or your false teacher, and Ravi doctrine believer, Andy Woods, could ever say to make that statement true (include most, if not all, who have ever been on the abomination show, Prophecy Watchers). You and he both preach the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, WHICH GOD HATES. Hebrews 10 could not be more clear in refuting your ridiculous assertions.

26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

What you preach is an abomination. But, I look forward to your future posts on the topic. Enjoy your coffee. ☕

[metmom]

The question seems to settle down to "Is salvation conditional upon behavior by the flesh AFTER one is born again, born from above?"

No, because the righteousness of Christ has been credited to our account upon salvation.

What we consider righteous deeds that we do as human beings are as filthy rags compared to the pure and holy righteousness of Christ that God sees when He looks at us.

We cannot outrigtheous Christ.

Our trying to add to the righteousness of Christ is like a two year old thinking he’s improving the Mona Lisa by scribbling on it with a crayon.

[MHGinTN]

John 10: 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and my Father are one.

Jesus puts His teaching in the present tense, thus when He says 'neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" He has issued a guarantee that in this life a man who is in His hand cannot be removed from His hand, and that includes the man himself.

A person in the hand of Jesus did not get their by his flesh. He cannot get out of that grasp by the flesh.

Jesus came to redeem the dead spirits of Adam's children who will believe in Whom GOD has sent for their redemption. To comprehend this one needs to understand that each descendant from Adam has a body, a behavior mechanism otherwise called the soul, and a spirit. In the dead spirit state the spirit is caught in the grasp of the flesh thus characterized as dead in trespasses and sins. Jesus offered HIS BLOOD to wash away the deadness of the flesh 'wrapped around' the spirit. When Jesus speaks of life more abundant He is referring to life in the spirit, not just physical life in the body.

The Word of God tells us in 1John3:9 that the spirit abides int he spirit of those whom God has birthed from above; I call them the born agains. There is a clue in Hebrews which opens a window on how it is that the perfect righteousness of God can abide in the spirit of a man or woman.

The Word of God is more powerful than any two-edged sword, able to separate soul and spirit, joint and marrow. The first 'separation' is not a 4Dimensional event, it takes place in a higher order of reality, where the spirit is. The second 'separation' refers to the physical 4D reality with a surgical precision implying perfect precision beneath the surface.

I offer to you readers that God separates the flesh, the behavior mechanism and body, away from the spirit, so that His righteousness is not encompassed by the sin-laden, sin trained flesh. So Jesus referred to a present tense reality that a born again member of the Body of Christ Believers is in His hand so that no man or woman can take that one from His hand. And the Presence of God's Spirit in the born again human spirit means eternal life is ABIDING therein. He gives that eternal life Presence so no man, not even the born again one can santch the born again from His hand.

More to come ... we pause here to let the cultists spew the ravings of the spirit within them.