Posted on 02/25/2022 8:13:18 AM PST by CondoleezzaProtege
Well, I’d be happy to be wrong, but I’ve shared these things, which are straight from scripture, for many years. And those who disagree never seem to get around to identifying the specific place where it is in error. Rather, it is merely just wrong because it disagrees with their foregone conclusion.
This is problematic because it is setting up many people who are superficially “Christian” to “fall away” when the expected rapture does not come in time and they find they are facing the Antichrist.
“when I see you on our way up to meet the Lord, which LAUNCHES Daniel’s 70th week, the 7-year tribulation, don’t say I didn’t warn you.”
I’ll gladly say you were right, but what will you say if it is otherwise? I’m not interested in telling anyone, “I told you so.” I’m interested in people being prepared to face what believers have always had to face. I’m interested in helping rescue people from an eschatology that aligns with the false Gospel of prosperity. You know, “your best life now” and God wanting His people to always be healthy, wealthy, and well-liked? The pre-trib rapture theory is appealing in the west, where we have not seen any wide, out-in-the-open persecution in our lifetimes. The idea that the Lord takes us all away before it gets very bad is enticing.
Can you demonstrate from scripture where any of what I said is incorrect? Can you support the rapture “launching Daniel’s 70th week” from scripture? Do you have explanations for the many passages that do not fit this paradigm? For so much at stake I find many people who adamantly affirm the pre-trib view with a complete inability to defend it from scripture. I’ve read countless articles and books, and watch many hours of videos, and listened to many sermons, with the hope that pre-trib might be justified by scripture. But I find that, while the paradigm of the pre-trib rapture sounds great, it falls apart when scrutinizing it in the light of the pages of the Bible.
In contrast, the pre-wrath rapture can be found through systematic study of the scripture. Just look at all of the related passages on Christ’s return and the Day of the Lord.
Unlearner, I’ll stick with you as long as you show you are a good-faith poster and willing to consider what I say to you.
I have been at this for over 50 years and the Lord has guided me through this area of the end times to the point where soon I will write a book that will be easy to read and understand and hopefully enjoyable because I want to help and encourage God’s people and others .
Having said all of that, I have to say, again, that your response to me seems a bit confused and contradictory.
But first to pinpoint where you’re in error, let’s start with your pretty dogmatic rejection of knowing the times and the seasons - expounded upon by Paul in 1 and 2 Thessalonians, especially in 1 Thessalonians Chapt 5 - and your misapplication of the same in Acts 1:7 where they are not talking about His return but the restoration of Israel (the Jews thought Christ’s first coming was political so they could get back their beloved Israel)
As far as contradictions, on one hand, you say,
“I find that, while the paradigm of the pre-trib rapture sounds great, it falls apart when scrutinizing it in the light of the pages of the Bible”,
but then you say,
“the pre-wrath rapture can be found through systematic study of the scripture.”
Looks like you’re trying to separate the Day of God’s wrath from Daniel’s 70th Week, the 7-year tribulation.
I wrote an fairly extensive post about scripture calling the tribulation the wrath of the Lamb and the wrath of God in this link,
https://freerepublic.com/focus/religion/4034963/posts?page=44#44
as well as other comments I made in that same thread. You may want to check it out.
“Unlearner, I’ll stick with you as long as you show you are a good-faith poster and willing to consider what I say to you.”
Fair enough. I only ask the same. We all have to be open to correction. Anyone can potentially be in error or deceived. I believe God keeps His elect from ultimate and total deception. But the constant reminder and warnings about being deceived presupposed the possibility that we CAN be deceived.
That applies to you. And I must accept the possibility for myself as well. I believe we can agree that the Bible and the Holy Spirit are the arbiters of these matters.
“I have been at this for over 50 years and the Lord has guided me through this area of the end times to the point where soon I will write a book that will be easy to read and understand and hopefully enjoyable because I want to help and encourage God’s people and others.”
This will make our conversation much more productive, I believe.
“your pretty dogmatic rejection of knowing the times and the seasons - expounded upon by Paul in 1 and 2 Thessalonians, especially in 1 Thessalonians Chapt 5 - and your misapplication of the same in Acts 1:7 where they are not talking about His return but the restoration of Israel (the Jews thought Christ’s first coming was political so they could get back their beloved Israel)”
My position is that the “times of the Gentiles” will last until Christ returns to set up His kingdom because Jerusalem will not be free of Gentile control until then. I believe that this is distinct from the “fullness of the Gentiles” that Paul mentions in Romans, which is about Gentiles believing the Gospel. Both, however, are related to the final things before Christ’s kingdom on earth begins. The Acts 1 narrative is directly related to the Olivet Discourse, and depending on how one interprets these passages, is about the Church AND Israel, the rapture AND Christ’s bodily return to the earth to establish His kingdom.
In First Thessalonians 5, Paul connects the rapture with the Day of the Lord. Both are repeatedly described with coming “like a thief”:
Matthew 24:43-44 (NKJV)
But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
1 Thessalonians 5:2 (NKJV)
For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.
2 Peter 3:10 (NKJV)
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.
Revelation 3:3 (NKJV)
Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.
Revelation 16:15 (NKJV)
Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.
In context, not knowing the day or hour is a similar expression to not knowing the times and seasons. Both refer to the question of “When?” This was one of the questions from the disciples about Christ’s coming to which He was replying. He gave them signs, but not a time, day, date, or season.
BUT, having said ALL of this, it is NOT essential to my position about the pre-wrath rapture. So, it is probably not worth debating further.
“Looks like you’re trying to separate the Day of God’s wrath from Daniel’s 70th Week, the 7-year tribulation.”
I believe the Bible clearly delineates between the Great Tribulation and the Day of the Lord. But to further clarify, BOTH are part, I believe, of Daniel’s 70th week. The first half appears to include a time of false peace and what Christ called the “beginning of sorrows.” It is more difficult to be precise about which prophetic events are limited to the first half because we must work backwards from the abomination of desolation which is in the middle. In other words, the peace, deception, war, famine, pestilence, etc. could possibly begin before Daniel’s 70th week and extend into it, but I think it is more likely that these are specific to that 7-year period.
The second half is more clearly defined because it lasts from the abomination of desolation until the defeat of Antichrist when Christ returns bodily to the earth and sets up His kingdom. The Great Tribulation clearly begins at the midpoint:
Matthew 24:15-21 (NKJV)
Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
It is my position that the Great Tribulation does not extend for the entire second half of Daniel’s 70th week. Rather, it abruptly ends with the rapture (i.e. it is cut short), and the remainder of this 7-year period is what Daniel calls the End (also in the Olivet Discourse) and other prophets refer to as the Day of the Lord. Other names of this time include Day of Christ, Day of God, and Day of Wrath. This time period is the second coming that begins with the rapture and ends with Christ standing on Mt. Olivet.
“I wrote an fairly extensive post about scripture calling the tribulation the wrath of the Lamb and the wrath of God in this link.”
Yes. God’s wrath is first mentioned in Revelation 6:16-17, after the first 6 seals have been opened. I believe that the 7 seals, 7 trumpets, and 7 bowls are sequential, linear events within Daniel’s 70th week. I believe the first 6 seals occur during the first half of this 7-year period and extend into the abomination of desolation (which will occur during the 5th seal), until 6th seal marks the end of the Great Tribulation. Then the rapture occurs, marking the beginning of the Day of Wrath described in 6:16-17. These seals judgments are identical to the signs Christ gives us in the Olivet Discourse, but from a Heavenly perspective.
I have reviewed your previous post. Please review these four passages from my previous post which describe celestial signs of prophetic events:
Isaiah 34:4 & 8 (NKJV)
All the host of heaven shall be dissolved,
And the heavens shall be rolled up like a scroll;
All their host shall fall down
As the leaf falls from the vine,
And as fruit falling from a fig tree...
For it is the day of the Lord’s vengeance,
The year of recompense for the cause of Zion.
Joel 2:31-32 (NKJV)
The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
BEFORE [emphasis added] the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
Matthew 24:29 (NKJV)
Immediately AFTER [emphasis added] the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Revelation 6:12-14 (NKJV)
I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.
For me, these are all describing the same set of signs that mark the end of the Great Tribulation and tell us that Christ’s return is imminent. He will come at any moment, and the Day if the Lord will begin.
In the timeline of your paradigm, where do each of these signs fall? Or do you recognize they are the same event?
Also read Isaiah 2. Truly ask yourself... ask God to make it clear... when does this occur? Is it before, during, or after Daniel’s 70th week, in your view? If it is during, which part? Can you arrange these various events and elements on a timeline?
This passage describes the same response as the people in Revelation 6. In the Day of the Lord, only He will be exalted, as opposed to the time when the man of sin exalts himself above all that is called God. God will reveal Himself. Mankind will see the “glory of His majesty”. This matches with “every eye will see Him.” Likewise, it is the time when Israel is brought to national repentance:
Zechariah 12:10 (NKJV)
And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.
If you think these events happen in a different order or at a different part of the prophetic timeline, be specific. When? And can you find them in Revelation? How do the events of the Olivet Discourse fit into the the detailed account of Revelation?
Not knowing the day or hour is NOT a similar expression to not knowing the times and seasons. “Days and hours” are precise while “times and seasons” are general. Don’t know why you fight against this so hard. Scripture tells us to watch for those things that will be coming on the earth. God WANTS his people to know what’s coming and also does NOT want them to be afraid but comforted (1 Thess. 4:18, 5:11). This position of yours goes against scripture especially the thrust of 1 & 2 Thessalonians. It is not a sensible position - just seems argumentative.
God’s wrath is stamped all over this seven-year period, from Chapter 6 through Chapter 19 of Revelation, as I’ve shown. A careful and prayerful reading of those chapters reveal exactly a seven-year period.
As far as the “tribulation” vs. the “great tribulation”, yes, Jesus made that distinction in his discourse in Matthew 24. Here Jesus describes the seventieth week of Daniel, referring to it specifically (v. 15).
He calls the first 3 1/2 years “the beginning of sorrows” (vs. 8). 1/2 of the world is killed during this time (Rev. 6:8, 9:18). A careful reading of this period shows God’s wrath is mixed with mercy (all of Israel is saved during this time).
He calls the last 3 1/2 years “the end” (Matt. 24:14) and “great tribulation” (Matt. 24:21). Except for the remnant of Israel hiding in the mountains, the entire world is killed during this period which includes the slaughter of the whole remaining world at Armageddon. This period is the wrath of God “without mixture” (Rev. 14:10) - God wrath not mixed with mercy - no one is saved during this last 3 1/2 years (except for Israel’s remnant which is already saved).
If you can find something substantial to agree with what I’ve said here, then at least we can find some kind of common ground and leave the rest alone. If not, then we’ll talk about it on our way up to meet the Lord in the air.
“If you can find something substantial to agree with what I’ve said here, then at least we can find some kind of common ground and leave the rest alone.”
I think we agree that a future 7 year period, aka Daniel’s 70th week, is what most of Revelation is describing. I think we both agree on a literal rapture in which Christ comes to meet us in the air. I think we both agree that the dead in Christ will rise first and those of us who are still alive will immediately (not days, months, or years later) receive glorified bodies and join them. I think we probably agree that Christ will subsequently return to the earth and then reign on earth. This is the typical “premillennial” view. I think we agree that the command to “watch” applies to us. (I know some pre-tribulation rapturists who do NOT believe this because they think it contradicts their view of imminency.)
I think we agree that prophecy is not merely academic, i.e. for head knowledge. Like you said, “God WANTS his people to know what’s coming and also does NOT want them to be afraid but comforted.”
We should probably move on from the “times and seasons” issue. We are at an impasse, and it is unproductive. As long as we both agree that no one should be date-setting the rapture based on either their Bible knowledge or specific signs that have already happened, I think we are in agreement on what’s important. Yes, we ARE supposed to understand the timeline of prophecy. Yes, we do know this involves a seven-year period in which God is going to fulfill His purpose, promises, and prophecies for Israel.
“God’s wrath is stamped all over this seven-year period, from Chapter 6 through Chapter 19 of Revelation, as I’ve shown. A careful and prayerful reading of those chapters reveal exactly a seven-year period.”
Yes it is. The only thing we disagree over here is precisely when His wrath begins to be poured out.
“He calls the last 3 1/2 years ‘the end’ (Matt. 24:14) and ‘great tribulation’ (Matt. 24:21).”
Matt. 24:14 (NKJV)
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
The disciples were asking Him about the signs of “the End” in verse 3. In verse 6 He says, “The End is not yet.” This is in reference to the beginning of sorrows. In verse 14 that you cited He says the Gospel will be preached to all nations BEFORE the End comes. While He describes persecution beginning before the abomination of desolation, other scriptures support that from this point the persecution of the saints becomes more pervasive and severe. Believers will be sharing their testimony and the message of salvation in Christ. Otherwise it serves no purpose. The End must follow this time of persecution, AFTER the Gospel has been preached to all nations.
Daniel mentions “The End” and “time of the End” (which might be broader, like how we sometimes talk about “the end times”). Christ was referring to Daniel in this context. And the disciples would have understood Him to be referring to the time of the resurrection from Daniel 12.
Paul also mentions it:
1 Corinthians 15:20-26 (NKJV)
But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
I’m not trying to read too much into this simple phrase or word. Perhaps its meaning is broader and more general than I think. But what I do think is that it is specifically referring to the Day of the Lord. That’s my present understanding of it. Regardless, I think its meaning probably neither proves or disproves either of our arguments for a pret-trib or pre-wrath rapture. I’m just trying to give context to where I’m coming from.
I’ll conclude (as you’ve discovered, I tend to be a bit longwinded) with 3 points:
1) I’ve discussed the issue of the celestial sign in the four or five passages I cited with many pre-trib rapturists. I don’t think a single one ever even attempted to explain, contextualize, or discuss at all the significance of this sign (or signs if you prefer). I’m not sure why that is. I suspect because it is too difficult to refute as evidence of the order of the Great Tribulation being immediately before the Day of the Lord. But I’ll admit I’m assuming. If you don’t want to explore it or discuss it, I’d appreciate an explanation as to why. It seems pretty definitive and germane to the discussion.
Please revisit those passages I’ve posted to you twice now and let me know what you believe they mean.
2) When discussing the Day of Wrath, pre-trib rapturists always generalize the Tribulation period while avoiding addressing the exact moment God’s wrath begins to be poured out. Obviously, they all want to include all 7 seals as part of the Day of Wrath. But the 5th seal has nothing to do with pouring out His wrath. It is the persecution of the saints, and LATER it becomes a reason for His wrath to be poured out.
Revelation 16:5-6 (NKJV)
And I heard the angel of the waters saying:
“You are righteous, O Lord,
The One who is and who was and who is to be,
Because You have judged these things.
For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets,
And You have given them blood to drink.
For it is their just due.”
But in chapter 6 they were calling for vengeance, but that vengeance had not come and was not going to come for a little while:
Revelation 6:9-11 (NKJV)
When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.
There is an indication of God’s wrath/vengeance having NOT arrived at this point. There is no evidence of it having been poured out yet. This is significant because, at this point, a pretty broad amount of Daniel’s 70th week events have occurred.
Now this alone is not proof that the Day of the Lord does not include the Great Tribulation or even the broader “tribulation period” of Daniel’s 70th week. But the celestial signs DO provide such evidence.
3) There are characteristic differences between the Day of the Lord and Daniel’s 70th week, as well as the Great Tribulation. Daniel’s 70th week begins with a false peace which is later disrupted with war. In contrast, the Day of the Lord brings with it sudden, swift, surprising destruction. During the Great Tribulation the Antichrist will exalt himself. During the Day of the Lord, only the Lord will be exalted.
1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 (NKJV)
For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.
2 Peter 3:10-12 (NKJV)
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?
Matthew 24:5 (NKJV)
For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.
Revelation 6:2 (NKJV)
And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.
2 Thessalonians 2:4 (NKJV)
[The man of sin] opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
Daniel 8:11 (NKJV)
He even exalted himself as high as the Prince of the host; and by him the daily sacrifices were taken away, and the place of His sanctuary was cast down.
Daniel 11:36 (NKJV)
Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done.
Isaiah 2:17-21 (NKJV)
The loftiness of man shall be bowed down,
And the haughtiness of men shall be brought low;
The Lord alone will be exalted in that day,
But the idols He shall utterly abolish.
They shall go into the holes of the rocks,
And into the caves of the earth,
From the terror of the Lord
And the glory of His majesty,
When He arises to shake the earth mightily.
In that day a man will cast away his idols of silver
And his idols of gold,
Which they made, each for himself to worship,
To the moles and bats,
To go into the clefts of the rocks,
And into the crags of the rugged rocks,
From the terror of the Lord
And the glory of His majesty,
When He arises to shake the earth mightily.
2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 (NKJV)
[God will] give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
Notice in this last passage that it is clearly describing the rapture. This is when Christ comes to be glorified in His saints, specifically the Thessalonian recipients of this epistle. It is at this time they will receive rest. But also note that He is coming in great power and glory. His holy angels are with Him, and they are coming to pour out fiery judgments on the earth. Does that sound like the first 5 seals of Revelation? Or does it sound more like the 7 trumpet and 7 bowl judgments? I don’t think this passage can be reconciled with the idea of the rapture being an event where the saints are taken away secretly (an event I do not find in scripture). Rather, it is consistent with His “glorious appearing” in which every eye will see Him, and all the earth will mourn because of Him. How can this be placed at the beginning of Daniel’s 70th week?
OK, unlearner (where did you get that name?), I think your heart is in the right place.
BTW, FYI, contrary to what you hear so often in the traditional churches, Matt. 24:14 (NKJV) (”And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come”) is not fulfilled until the half-way point 3 1/2 years into the tribulation (Rev. 14:6). From there, as Jesus said, the end will come.
I’ll venture a correction but don’t want to go on ad infinitum, ad nauseam.
2 Thess. 1:7-10 (NKJV) is a description of the SECOND part of Jesus second coming - when he comes WITH his Saints to execute vengeance upon the earth in the bloodiest of battle ever - Armageddon (Rev. Chapt. 19) where blood flows through the valley of Meggido for 200 miles as high as the horses bridles (Rev. 14:20). Hard to even conceive of that level of carnage. This ENDS the 7-year tribulation.
1 Thess. 4:16-17 describes the FIRST part of his second coming when Jesus comes FOR his saints (the so-called “rapture”). Note the Holy Spirit is also taken out of the earth at the same time so there is nothing to “withhold” the satanic take over of the whole earth (2 Thess. 2:6-12) which is why the first part of Jesus second coming (”the rapture”) BEGINS the tribulation because there is NOTHING to stop Satan from doing what he has lusted for since the beginning.
“OK, unlearner (where did you get that name?)”
If you look at my Free Republic about page you will find an excerpt from a short story called “An Unfinished Communication” by Charles H. Hinton. It has a character named “Unlearner”. That’s where I got it. The idea is that a person cannot learn what is correct until he or she first unlearns the things that have been learned that are incorrect.
“2 Thess. 1:7-10 (NKJV) is a description of the SECOND part of Jesus second coming - when he comes WITH his Saints to execute vengeance upon the earth in the bloodiest of battle ever - Armageddon (Rev. Chapt. 19) where blood flows through the valley of Meggido for 200 miles as high as the horses bridles (Rev. 14:20). Hard to even conceive of that level of carnage. This ENDS the 7-year tribulation.”
Interesting. Most pe-tribulation rapturists believe this passage is a rapture passage. It’s hard to imagine the Thessalonians NOT being confused if that is the case because Paul does not make a distinction as he continues to discuss “our gathering together unto Him” in 2:2. Further, in 1:7 the Thessalonians are told this event will give them rest. Wouldn’t they rest from their then present tribulation at the rapture? And if those persecuting the Thessalonians were going to be left behind at the rapture and go through the Day of the Lord and it’s “sudden destruction” from which they “will not escape” according to 1 Thessalonians 5, why would Paul say these persecutors would get their payback at the very end of Daniel’s 70th week?
“Note the Holy Spirit is also taken out of the earth at the same time so there is nothing to ‘withhold’ the satanic take over of the whole earth (2 Thess. 2:6-12) which is why the first part of Jesus second coming (‘the rapture’) BEGINS the tribulation because there is NOTHING to stop Satan from doing what he has lusted for since the beginning.”
There does not seem to be a reason to assume the restrainer is the Holy Spirit apart from the presupposition that there is a pre-tribulation rapture. In other words, this conclusion does not flow naturally from the text itself. And it seems that Satan’s antichrist agenda began at the Garden of Eden rather than at Pentecost. And God did not use the Holy Spirit indwelling the Church to restrain this. The Holy Spirit had not been given when Antiochus Epiphanes defiled the temple at the Maccabean revolt, yet his agenda was defeated. John said the antichrist spirit was already at work and there were already many antichrists (one of the signs of the end times).
1 John 2:18 (NKJV)
Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.
Why would he warn them about the coming Antichrist if the Church will not face him? Why would the restrainer being taken out at the beginning of Daniel’s 70th week not free the Antichrist to immediately enter the temple and proclaim himself God? Why would it take 3.5 years to take effect? Why does he “reign” for only the second half if the restrainer is gone at the beginning?
The seven Spirits of God are symbolized by the seven lamps of fire before His throne and also by the Lamb who has the “seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth”. It does not appear the Spirit of God has departed the earth at the time the Lamb opens the seals.
Look at the passage Peter preached at Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was first poured out in fulfillment of prophecy:
Acts 2:17-21 (NKJV)
And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.
And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
And they shall prophesy.
I will show wonders in heaven above
And signs in the earth beneath:
Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Shall be saved.
See how this connects to the Day of the Lord and the Gospel as we’ve been discussing? So, the Holy Spirit came prior to the Day of the Lord (obviously since that Day hasn’t come yet even now), but notice the other connected signs? The celestial event I described is also BEFORE the Day of the Lord. Additionally, there are signs on the earth BEFORE the Day of the Lord which include blood, smoke, and fire. This is problematic for claiming the Day of the Lord is the same as Daniel’s 70th week.
I’m still perplexed though. Your reaction is the same reaction I have ALWAYS received on the celestial signs. Many pre-trib rapturists are happy to discuss who the restrainer is and their particular understanding of how the pieces of the puzzle fit together. (They’re always different, by the way, even though they all agree with the pre-trib view.) But when it comes to a careful examination of these few short passages about the celestial signs AFTER the Great Tribulation and BEFORE the Day of the Lord, they ALWAYS run away from it. I really don’t get it.
If I still held the pre-tribulation view I’d be dying to figure out these passages. I would simply not be satisfied without an answer. I especially would not be content to ignore them if I was thinking of writing a book on the end times. You are not the only writer or Bible teacher in this category. Is there some reason these signs have no interest at all to you?
I left one thing out of my admittedly longwinded post.
You made a distinction between the second coming event in 1 Thessalonians 4 and the one in 2 Thessalonians 1. You emphasized FOR His saints versus WITH His saints.
But the first event ALSO includes Him coming WITH His saints:
2 Thessalonians 4:14 (NKJV)
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring WITH [emphasis added] Him those who sleep in Jesus.
“Is there some reason these signs have no interest at all to you?”
Some things are plainly understood, other things are more difficult. You’re trying to use things that are difficult to understand to deny those things that are more plainly understood.
I’ll do this and then I’ll be done.
The First Part of Jesus’ Second Coming:
- Nobody sees him coming - He comes as a thief to snatch away his own (Matt. 24:42; 1 Thess. 5:2).
- No one except the Father knows the day or the hour of his coming and it will be in an hour that he will not be expected (Matt. 24:36, 44).
- This event starts Israel’s clock ticking once again after 2000 years (the 2000-year gap between Daniel’s 69th week and Daniel’s 70th week.) God’s attention turns from the Gentiles back to the Jews as he promised.
The Second part of Jesus’ Second Coming
- Everybody sees him coming, “as lightning comes out of the east and shines in the west” (Matt. 24:27).
- Those who pay attention will know the exact time he will appear - at the end of seven years of Daniel’s seventieth week - precisely 7 years after Jesus takes the church along with the Holy Spirit to Heaven (Rev. 6:1-19:21; 2 Thess.2:6-7).
That’s all I have for you unlearner. I’ve enjoyed our discussion. I love talking about this stuff and you’ve been a pretty good listener but I think you’re holding on to some “pet doctrines” which are getting in your way. The flesh loves pet doctrines. I know - I had to let mine go and erase the blackboard before I was ready to hear from Him, not my own agenda (kinda like your “unlearner” story).
Think I’m done. God bless.
Leave Scofield alone and ask the Holy Spirit for understanding. As I told unlearner, if you’re willing to forsake any “pet doctrines” you might have and erase the blackboard, Jesus will write the truth on your heart.
Jesus return, or second coming, is in two parts:
The first part: the “rapture” is when he comes FOR his saints as a thief who NOBODY sees coming, and
The second part: Armageddon is when he comes WITH his saints to execute judgment on the entire remaining world and EVERYBODY sees him coming.
Rightly dividing the word of truth includes paying attention to who’s talking and to whom. The starting point in reading Matthew 24 is realizing Jesus is talking to the Jews (the Book of Matthew focuses on the Jews and Jesus as the Lion of the tribe of Judah).
In answering his Jewish disciples’ question about the end of the age, he goes through the events of the 70th Week of Daniel - the 7-year tribulation - (Matt. 24:4-35) - to the second part of his second coming WITH his saints to execute judgment (v.30-31). Verse 29 is in this part of his discussion - the tribulation itself.
He then warns them about being ready for the “rapture” - the first part of his second coming - so they will escape these horrors (v. 36-44). Verse 39 is in this part of his discussion - preparation for escaping the tribulation.
Hope that helps.
Matt 24:40-41 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.The question I’m asking is who is taken? I agree that there are two events, the rapture and the second coming. This event is compared to the days of Noah where the people were living like there was no impending judgment and were taken away by the flood. They knew not until the flood came and took them all away.
OK, except Israel is saved during this time and escapes the the winepress of the wrath of God.
What happens to the analogy if you reverse something?
What are you talking about? Might as well ask, what happens to God's Word if you reverse something - or what happens to the truth if you change it?
Thanks for the feedback.
Take care.
You’re welcome and God bless.
Matt 24:37-41Some people think that the one taken in verses 40 and 41 is the believer. Some people think the one taken is the unbeliever. What do you think?
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
To rightly divide the word of truth you have to look at the context and of course let the Holy Spirit give you that life and peace - the assurance you have the right way to read his word. When you feel like you’re striving, then stop and wait for his peace because strife is born of the flesh which is enmity with God and his Word.
But if you’re going to use man as your authority instead of the peace of the Holy Spirt then you’re in trouble already because God’s word says that the anointing (the Holy Spirit), not man, will teach you (1 John 2:27). The Lord uses men to teach but the hearers must be leaning on the peace of the Holy Spirit to know whether what is being said is true and of God.
So, what do you think?
Jesus said there are many parallels with the days of Noah and his coming (the first part).
1) A great disaster was about to happen then as now, and Noah was a preacher warning the world of the imminent disaster (2 Peter 2:5).
2) Nobody knew when this great disaster would happen and, as today, many scoffed saying that everything will be as they always have been (2 Peter 3:4).
3) The world frolicked “until the DAY that Noah entered into the ark, and didn’t know until the flood came and killed them (Matt. 24:38-39). The world underwent never-heard of tribulation THE DAY Noah and his family entered into the ark. “So shall also be the coming of the Son of man be”(v. 39).
Who entered into the Ark then? Those who were saved from the deadly flood upon the world which started THE DAY Noah entered the ark.
Who will soon enter into the safety of Christ and Heaven? Those in Christ who will be taken up to Christ in the air and into Heaven from the unimaginable horrors of the wrath to come upon the world which will start IMMEDIATELY upon the “rapture” of the church along with the exit of the Holy Spirit.
I’m just reading the text. Matthew 24:39 clearly says that the unbelievers were taken away by the flood, unless your are trying to say that Noah didn’t know about the flood. You are trying to say that the believers are taken in verses 40 and 41. That is what I was saying about reversing the analogy. The text says “like” the days not “unlike.”
You need to look at the whole context. Noah and his family being lifted in the ark out of the deadly flood on the earth and now, God’s people being lifted up to meet Jesus in the air from the deadly tribulation on the earth. All because of God’s love and mercy towards his own (1 Thess. 4:16-18).
Don’t split hairs and strive over words (which the flesh loves to do) like the word “take”, missing the overall context. Unbelievers were taken and destroyed by the flood. Noah and his family were taken in the ark above the flood.
Don’t be like those described in 1 Timothy, “doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof comes envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings” (1 Tim 6:4).
Walk after the life and peace of the Spirit not after the strivings of the flesh which is death (Rom. 8:6-8).
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