Replies

“If you can find something substantial to agree with what I’ve said here, then at least we can find some kind of common ground and leave the rest alone.”

I think we agree that a future 7 year period, aka Daniel’s 70th week, is what most of Revelation is describing. I think we both agree on a literal rapture in which Christ comes to meet us in the air. I think we both agree that the dead in Christ will rise first and those of us who are still alive will immediately (not days, months, or years later) receive glorified bodies and join them. I think we probably agree that Christ will subsequently return to the earth and then reign on earth. This is the typical “premillennial” view. I think we agree that the command to “watch” applies to us. (I know some pre-tribulation rapturists who do NOT believe this because they think it contradicts their view of imminency.)

I think we agree that prophecy is not merely academic, i.e. for head knowledge. Like you said, “God WANTS his people to know what’s coming and also does NOT want them to be afraid but comforted.”

We should probably move on from the “times and seasons” issue. We are at an impasse, and it is unproductive. As long as we both agree that no one should be date-setting the rapture based on either their Bible knowledge or specific signs that have already happened, I think we are in agreement on what’s important. Yes, we ARE supposed to understand the timeline of prophecy. Yes, we do know this involves a seven-year period in which God is going to fulfill His purpose, promises, and prophecies for Israel.

“God’s wrath is stamped all over this seven-year period, from Chapter 6 through Chapter 19 of Revelation, as I’ve shown. A careful and prayerful reading of those chapters reveal exactly a seven-year period.”

Yes it is. The only thing we disagree over here is precisely when His wrath begins to be poured out.

“He calls the last 3 1/2 years ‘the end’ (Matt. 24:14) and ‘great tribulation’ (Matt. 24:21).”

Matt. 24:14 (NKJV)
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

The disciples were asking Him about the signs of “the End” in verse 3. In verse 6 He says, “The End is not yet.” This is in reference to the beginning of sorrows. In verse 14 that you cited He says the Gospel will be preached to all nations BEFORE the End comes. While He describes persecution beginning before the abomination of desolation, other scriptures support that from this point the persecution of the saints becomes more pervasive and severe. Believers will be sharing their testimony and the message of salvation in Christ. Otherwise it serves no purpose. The End must follow this time of persecution, AFTER the Gospel has been preached to all nations.

Daniel mentions “The End” and “time of the End” (which might be broader, like how we sometimes talk about “the end times”). Christ was referring to Daniel in this context. And the disciples would have understood Him to be referring to the time of the resurrection from Daniel 12.

Paul also mentions it:

1 Corinthians 15:20-26 (NKJV)
But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

I’m not trying to read too much into this simple phrase or word. Perhaps its meaning is broader and more general than I think. But what I do think is that it is specifically referring to the Day of the Lord. That’s my present understanding of it. Regardless, I think its meaning probably neither proves or disproves either of our arguments for a pret-trib or pre-wrath rapture. I’m just trying to give context to where I’m coming from.

I’ll conclude (as you’ve discovered, I tend to be a bit longwinded) with 3 points:

1) I’ve discussed the issue of the celestial sign in the four or five passages I cited with many pre-trib rapturists. I don’t think a single one ever even attempted to explain, contextualize, or discuss at all the significance of this sign (or signs if you prefer). I’m not sure why that is. I suspect because it is too difficult to refute as evidence of the order of the Great Tribulation being immediately before the Day of the Lord. But I’ll admit I’m assuming. If you don’t want to explore it or discuss it, I’d appreciate an explanation as to why. It seems pretty definitive and germane to the discussion.
Please revisit those passages I’ve posted to you twice now and let me know what you believe they mean.

2) When discussing the Day of Wrath, pre-trib rapturists always generalize the Tribulation period while avoiding addressing the exact moment God’s wrath begins to be poured out. Obviously, they all want to include all 7 seals as part of the Day of Wrath. But the 5th seal has nothing to do with pouring out His wrath. It is the persecution of the saints, and LATER it becomes a reason for His wrath to be poured out.

Revelation 16:5-6 (NKJV)
And I heard the angel of the waters saying:
“You are righteous, O Lord,
The One who is and who was and who is to be,
Because You have judged these things.
For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets,
And You have given them blood to drink.
For it is their just due.”

But in chapter 6 they were calling for vengeance, but that vengeance had not come and was not going to come for a little while:

Revelation 6:9-11 (NKJV)
When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

There is an indication of God’s wrath/vengeance having NOT arrived at this point. There is no evidence of it having been poured out yet. This is significant because, at this point, a pretty broad amount of Daniel’s 70th week events have occurred.

Now this alone is not proof that the Day of the Lord does not include the Great Tribulation or even the broader “tribulation period” of Daniel’s 70th week. But the celestial signs DO provide such evidence.

3) There are characteristic differences between the Day of the Lord and Daniel’s 70th week, as well as the Great Tribulation. Daniel’s 70th week begins with a false peace which is later disrupted with war. In contrast, the Day of the Lord brings with it sudden, swift, surprising destruction. During the Great Tribulation the Antichrist will exalt himself. During the Day of the Lord, only the Lord will be exalted.

1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 (NKJV)
For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

2 Peter 3:10-12 (NKJV)
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?

Matthew 24:5 (NKJV)
For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.

Revelation 6:2 (NKJV)
And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.

2 Thessalonians 2:4 (NKJV)
[The man of sin] opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Daniel 8:11 (NKJV)
He even exalted himself as high as the Prince of the host; and by him the daily sacrifices were taken away, and the place of His sanctuary was cast down.

Daniel 11:36 (NKJV)
Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done.

Isaiah 2:17-21 (NKJV)
The loftiness of man shall be bowed down,
And the haughtiness of men shall be brought low;
The Lord alone will be exalted in that day,
But the idols He shall utterly abolish.
They shall go into the holes of the rocks,
And into the caves of the earth,
From the terror of the Lord
And the glory of His majesty,
When He arises to shake the earth mightily.
In that day a man will cast away his idols of silver
And his idols of gold,
Which they made, each for himself to worship,
To the moles and bats,
To go into the clefts of the rocks,
And into the crags of the rugged rocks,
From the terror of the Lord
And the glory of His majesty,
When He arises to shake the earth mightily.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 (NKJV)
[God will] give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

Notice in this last passage that it is clearly describing the rapture. This is when Christ comes to be glorified in His saints, specifically the Thessalonian recipients of this epistle. It is at this time they will receive rest. But also note that He is coming in great power and glory. His holy angels are with Him, and they are coming to pour out fiery judgments on the earth. Does that sound like the first 5 seals of Revelation? Or does it sound more like the 7 trumpet and 7 bowl judgments? I don’t think this passage can be reconciled with the idea of the rapture being an event where the saints are taken away secretly (an event I do not find in scripture). Rather, it is consistent with His “glorious appearing” in which every eye will see Him, and all the earth will mourn because of Him. How can this be placed at the beginning of Daniel’s 70th week?