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To: MurphsLaw
You chose to mischaracterize my example in a most self-refuting way. You can ignore the history all you want but people actually believed what Arius, Pelagius et al. actually believed- contrary to what the Early Church believed. Many " believers"(Read 1st Clement) And do you think THEY were not DILIGENT "seekers" too, as you say? - if not more? Well they were more so in their convictions- and they were wrong. Without the Church combating those errors... no way in he// can you say you would not fallen into one of those ancient heresies that could have been remained just as popular into today- in the same way with what Luther invented. Thankfully, (ευχαριστία- eucharistally) we don't have to think about what might have been. The revelation of Ephesus is proof enough.

The self-refuting seems to be your forte.

Just as in the first century Christian community, today there is no end to heresies, they STILL pop up. Do yourself a favor and look up the way in which the early church leaders combatted the damnable heresies of false prophets/teachers who as ravenous wolves crept into the assemblies of believers to try to lead them astray. Did they stand upon, "We are THE church and we say so!"? No, they used the Scriptures to present the superior arguments and through their examples and prayer they trusted in the Holy Spirit to teach the truth to the hearts of those who were sincerely seeking to know it. St. Peter describes them well:

    But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privately shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingers not, and their damnation slumbers not. (II Peter 2:1-3)

I left the Roman Catholic church because I saw for myself the errors it taught concerning one of THE most important tenets of the Christian faith - that of justification by faith and not works. I was diligently and earnestly seeking to know the truth and God kept His promise. He opened my eyes and heart to the truth of the gospel. Nobody told me leave but it was clear as day that what I had been told all my life up until then about how to go to heaven when I died was not the truth. This passage is what did that:

    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give to them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one. (John 10:27-30)

That's how God works! Through the leading of the Holy Spirit who teaches all things to those who seek God with all their heart and they WILL know the truth. God led me to go to a Bible college so that I could know His word and WHY I believed. That's why I will never be an Arian, Pelagian, semi-Pelagian, or any off shoot of them. I don't need to be a Roman Catholic to be a Christian.

79 posted on 01/23/2022 7:36:41 PM PST by boatbums (Lord, make my life a testimony to the value of knowing you.)
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To: boatbums
Now that the dust has settled…

The self-refuting seems to be your forte.

Just as in the first century Christian community, today there is no end to heresies, they STILL pop up.


Forte? Really?
Are you just typing that to type it? Or could you please explain or example what you feel is self-refuting of what I am saying.
And I never said of heresies that they are no more – or even that they die easy. We are still dealing with heresies from the 500 yr old “Reformation” still ongoing today.

You made the statement:

“He is rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. We don't need to identify
ourselves as "Protestant", "Pelagian", "Montanist", "Catholic", etc.
because we are CHRISTIANS…


To which I pointed out that there are those who “diligently seek him” as you say- AND can hold incorrect, heretical views as well. Just because one is “Diligently seeking him” is not a standard one can use to winnow falsity from Truth. That’s what you’re not seeing.

Do yourself a favor and look up the way in which the early church leaders combatted the damnable heresies of false prophets/teachers who as ravenous wolves crept into the assemblies of believers to try to lead them astray. Did they stand upon, "We are THE church and we say so!"? No, they used the Scriptures to present the superior arguments and through their examples and prayer they trusted in the Holy Spirit to teach the truth to the hearts of those who were sincerely seeking to know it.

So on your advice- I looked into it.
I see the very first “conflict” of the infant Church and
opposing beliefs had to do with the Judiazers, and Circumcision...
The boys got together... and they hashed it out... and decided no more snip-snip. Sure, the Holy Spirit was involved in that First Council- but this was new Doctrinal territory now… and it was said of this get together “There was MUCH debate” (Heck Yeah… those adult Gentiles had some real concerns…)
What WAS clear was that new doctrine needed to be developed for this infant Church… and by this Council approach - heresies could be dealt with. Every heresy disagreement wasn’t like Pentecost and tongues of fire coming down. FALLIBLE men had to come to agreement.
The Church Father’s also influenced with their wisdom in their writings against the heresies they saw- but it was in fact a process that would evolve into an Authoritative body deciding the Rule of Faith for the Church (Doctrine) going forward !
Which is in fact “Case Closed – We say so!
Now in your mind- did the Holy Spirit take a hike before Nicea- or for the next 1500 years and let this Church thing go off the rails? We don’t think so… you say yourself – “ in the Holy Spirit to teach the truth to the hearts of those who were sincerely seeking to know it. Are you excluding then, the "sincerely seeking" men over the centuries of the developing Catholic Church in this Spiritual process as well?

That’s what the Church antagonists would like us to believe… The Holy Spirit checked out for a millennia or so, left the Church hanging... and decided to return back on the side of modernistic individualism, when it began to sink its claws into the Christianity in the 1500’s?

It's laughable that all these different sects and denominations that keep popping into existence all the time- each of course filled with the Holy Spirit... and all having their own beliefs (as if the Holy Spirit were somehow schizophrenic or something) - yet though with all these different Churches and beliefs they all definitely seem to have unity - to have at least ONE thing in common- and that is the 2000 year old Catholic Church is bad. (And False…)
Coincidence?
So do you think any of these competing ideas of what they think the Faith in Christ through the Church he established just might have it wrong? Isn't it possible that at least some of these non-Catholic faith beliefs have some incorrectness in their ideals?
Well, that’s what the Church has been dealing with ever since the Judiazers - and always will. Whose job is it to combat heresy than?

And not for nothing - most people, in my experience, leave the Church looking for something else, yes… but something simpler, more individualistic.
Confession is probably the gnawing dealbreaker for most exits, if a real survey could ever be done. No one I know who walked away from the Church ever said… ”Ya know, I really miss confession”.
On that, there can be no disagreement.
You may not choose to be Catholic- as you wish- but that is the only way you can have a "material" relationship with Christ in your Life...

and it doesn't get any more "personal" than that...

85 posted on 01/25/2022 3:27:56 PM PST by MurphsLaw ("not hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.")
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