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Where Else Are We to Go, If Not to Rome?
Crisis Magazine ^ | 10-19-2021 | Regis Martin

Posted on 10/19/2021 3:45:57 PM PDT by MurphsLaw


If I were a convert, which I am not, I think I’d rather resent hearing the Pope tell me that I’d made a mistake in becoming one. It seems rather off-putting, don’t you think, to go ahead and pope, only to have the real one in Rome suddenly announce that maybe you shouldn’t have?

What’s going on here? Is it a big deal or just a little dustup in a dirt field? Well, it certainly strikes me as a big deal, even if it wasn’t actually the Pope saying it but some high-level twit speaking on his behalf, one of those “ecclesial pests” about whom Pope Pius IX used to complain.

And in this particular instance it was, by any standard, an exceedingly big deal. Because here was no ordinary convert crossing the Tiber, as they say, to become Catholic. No, this was one of the brightest stars in the Anglican sky. Not a few fellow Anglicans were eager to hitch their wagon to his star. How dim that sky has since become now that Michael Nazir-Ali has decided to chuck it all for Rome!

The irony of the thing is quite stunning, too. A Pakistani-born immigrant grows up to become the Anglican Bishop of Rochester, where five centuries before a brave bishop by the name of John Fisher lost his head rather than bend it to the will of an irate king determined to make his own church. Fisher was the only bishop standing athwart the usurpations of Henry Tudor, who would not permit Rome, or any mere bishop appointed by her, to get in his way. And when weak and wayward children, driven by fear into abject submission to a wicked prince, dutifully resolve to rid themselves of their Mother, then the center no longer holds.

It was to return to that missing center that Michael Nazir-Ali chose to convert, an event which took place on the feast of his namesake, St. Michael the Archangel, on the 29th of last month. It was exactly ninety-one years to the day, by the way, after another luminary, Evelyn Waugh, made his submission to Rome. He was not a churchman, of course, but he was someone destined shortly to become one of the brightest literary lights in England. For Waugh, the Catholic Church had come to represent “the only genuine form of Christianity and that Christianity was the essential and formative constituent of western culture.” In fact, he would argue, “Catholicism was Christianity, and that all other forms of Christianity were only good insofar as they chipped little bits off the main block.”

Is that, I wonder, what moved Michael Nazir-Ali to jump ship? That he’d come ruefully to realize that there simply weren’t enough bits left? That Anglicanism was an exhausted project, a dead end? In an email sent to friends, the former Anglican prelate put it more gently: “I believe that the Anglican desire to adhere to apostolic, patristic and conciliar teaching can now best be maintained in the Catholic Ordinariate.”

So, why would anyone—least of all the Pope, surely the last person on earth to try and deflect a movement of conversion conceived and executed in Catholic terms—wish to discourage someone like that? Is it being suggested that he wasn’t being sincere? Horsefeathers. Indeed, to see it from his vantage point, what would be the point of his remaining Anglican when, however inchoate such desires may be, their consummation can only be found in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church of Rome? Is that so strange or disconcerting?

It was more than a century ago, incidentally, that Ronald Knox, another and even brighter Anglican luminary, likewise left everything behind, becoming England’s most celebrated convert since Newman. “I could not now find,” he tells us in A Spiritual Aeneid, a moving account of his life right up to the moment of his conversion, “that any certain source of authority was available outside the pale of the Roman Catholic Church…I did not crave for infallible decrees; I wanted to be certain I belonged to that Church of which St. Paul said proudly, ‘We have the Mind of Christ.’”

Lacking such certainty in the non-Catholic world, why shouldn’t one gravitate to Rome? As the novelist Walker Percy said when asked why he converted, “What else is there?” Or Joan of Arc, for heaven’s sake. Confronted by corrupt clergy on either side, her life hanging in the balance, how did she put it? “Concerning Christ and the Church,” she declared, “I simply know they’re just one thing, and we shouldn’t complicate the matter.”

If we take it as a given that the Eucharist remains the centerpiece of our faith, and that Protestantism can make no provision for Real Presence in their worship service, why shouldn’t it follow that people hungry for God become Catholic? The most telling line I’ve ever come across was in a letter written by Flannery O’Connor to a woman whom she’d recently persuaded to become Catholic. The conversion did not take, however, and in the aftermath of her leaving, O’Connor wrote the following: “The only thing that is going to make the terrible world we are coming to endurable is the Church; and the only thing that makes the Church endurable is that it is somehow the Body of Christ and on this Body we are fed.”

How does one improve upon that? Where else are we to go, then, if not to Rome? And when we do, armed with the faith of the apostles, let us have the courage to go straight to the Pope and tell him, smilingly, why.



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Vatican II's purpose was to open the Church and go out into the broken post war, soon to be nuclear, world- sharing the beauty and treasures of Christianity within the Church, teaching the world of the inseparable bond of Tradition and Scripture to those that would hear.
Not to let the modern world in, but to bring the Light of Christ to the people, as has been it been tasked this ancient mission from the beginning.

Is the Pope disposing of the mission of Vatican II as well?
Sure seems that way.


1 posted on 10/19/2021 3:45:57 PM PDT by MurphsLaw
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To: MurphsLaw

The Catholics have the same leadership problem that the USA does. The rulers hate the belief system they took charge of. Disaster is inevitable.


2 posted on 10/19/2021 4:02:06 PM PDT by Seruzawa ("The Political left is the Garden of Eden of incompetence" - Marx the Smarter (Groucho))
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To: MurphsLaw; ConservativeMind; ealgeone; Mark17; BDParrish; fishtank; boatbums; Luircin; mitch5501; ..
" It seems rather off-putting, don’t you think, to go ahead and pope, only to have the real one in Rome suddenly announce that maybe you shouldn’t have? "

Well, Francis certainly is one reason not to become a RC (esp. given so much the historical papal teaching that requires broad submission to that office), as are those who petulantly post provocative prevaricating propaganda after being refuted multitudinous times, but more so in the light of distinctive Catholic teachings that are not manifest in the only wholly inspired substantive authoritative record of what the NT church believed (which is Scripture, in particular Acts through Revelation, which best shows how the NT church understood the gospels).

That's it.

3 posted on 10/19/2021 4:14:32 PM PDT by daniel1212 ( Turn to the Lord Jesus as a damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save + be baptized + follow Him!)
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To: MurphsLaw

All I can say for Michael Nazir-Ali - bad timing. Rome is not the place in which to place your faith and hope today. Pachamama, an idol reigns, Christ is in the trash bin.

https://veritas-vincit-international.org/2019/12/12/pope-blesses-pachamama/


4 posted on 10/19/2021 4:25:21 PM PDT by iontheball
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To: MurphsLaw

Jesus Christ.

Acts 4:11-12 This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone. And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”


5 posted on 10/19/2021 4:34:28 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith)
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To: daniel1212

I don’t see why Catholics would expect anyone, any non-Catholic, to put themselves under the authority of a pope that they themselves reject.


6 posted on 10/19/2021 4:36:18 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith…)
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To: Seruzawa

Man’s knowledge of God is pathetic, sadly it shows how bad man is..
Churches aren’t God..we are to go to the true Father, through Christ


7 posted on 10/19/2021 4:38:34 PM PDT by aces (and )
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To: metmom

Fear.


8 posted on 10/19/2021 4:55:35 PM PDT by caww ( )
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To: MurphsLaw

‘Disposing of Vat II?” Naw, he’s a Vat III guy. And he could do a lot worse than disposing of Vat II imho.


9 posted on 10/19/2021 5:43:10 PM PDT by bboop (does not suffer fools gladly)
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To: iontheball

The Pope’s a Commie. So is Biden. A Commie Pope is no reason to abandon the Catholic Church; neither is a Commie faux-President a reason to abandon the United States.


10 posted on 10/19/2021 5:45:30 PM PDT by bboop (does not suffer fools gladly)
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"Vatican II's purpose was to open the Church and go out into the broken post war, soon to be nuclear, world- sharing the beauty and treasures of Christianity within the Church, teaching the world of the inseparable bond of Tradition and Scripture to those that would hear."

Pure B.S.

Is the Pope disposing of the mission of Vatican II as well?

No, he's using VC II to launch his own VC III, aka his Sin-Nod of Sin-Nods.

11 posted on 10/19/2021 5:45:38 PM PDT by ebb tide (Where are the good fruits of the Second Vatican Council? Anyone?)
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To: iontheball

The Pope’s a Commie. So is Biden. A Commie Pope is no reason to abandon the Catholic Church; neither is a Commie faux-President a reason to abandon the United States.

I follow Christ, not the Church, but within the garment of the Catholic Church.


12 posted on 10/19/2021 5:46:34 PM PDT by bboop (does not suffer fools gladly)
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To: Al Hitan; DuncanWaring; Fedora; irishjuggler; Jaded; JoeFromSidney; kalee; markomalley; ...
Saint John XXIII stated that the purpose of the Council was the “modernization of the Church after 20 centuries of life.”

PASCENDI DOMINICI GREGIS

Modernism: And now, can anybody who takes a survey of the whole system be surprised that We should define it as the synthesis of all heresies?

13 posted on 10/19/2021 5:53:08 PM PDT by ebb tide (Where are the good fruits of the Second Vatican Council? Anyone?)
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To: MurphsLaw

I am surprised Orthodox churches are not expanding. There is Apostolic succession but no strange Pope.


14 posted on 10/19/2021 7:04:56 PM PDT by married21 (As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.)
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To: MurphsLaw

.

If you accept Vatican 2,

you think your church is alive.

If you reject Vatican 2,

you admit your church is dead.


15 posted on 10/19/2021 8:57:16 PM PDT by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: metmom
I don’t see why Catholics would expect anyone, any non-Catholic, to put themselves under the authority of a pope that they themselves reject.

Well... no.
Firstly, the Pope, a man, a sinner, is not who you put your faith in. EVER.
Granted John Paul II inspired many to the fullness of the Truth and the Sacramental life in The Church- but that’s not the Pope's priority. He is the Bishop of Rome, leader of all the Bishops, just as St. Peter began.
And any Pope is NOT above correction or disagreement. St.Paul opposed Peter, even while affirming Peter's leadership role, and not challenging it.
So to disagree with a Pope is normal. Even "scriptural" - but to reject the Office of the Pope is heretical. Had Paul trashed and rejected Peter as Christ had chosen in leading his Church, the schismatics would have a case.
If anyone truly "rejects" Papal authority as you say then they cease to be Catholic in the first place. The Freepy Seds and schismos fall into this category. While this Pope goes out of his way to be disliked in his capitulations, he through the guidance of the Holy Spirit sits in that Chair as the Popes before him did as well.
His job is to steward the Church, but the Pope IS NOT The Church. He cannot save you.

Christ is the Church.

Anyone considering the Eucharistic Church by sizing up the flaws of any Pope has their priorities mixed up. It's like a commenter wrote earlier today- "you wouldn't leave America- or discourage anyone from becoming an American - because the President happens to be a very flawed and incorrect Joe Robinette Biden.
16 posted on 10/19/2021 9:14:38 PM PDT by MurphsLaw (Be Willing to march into hell with a Heavenly cause, and of couse, "Keep Going".)
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To: metmom
Jesus Christ.

Well on the surface... that seems like a good answer. A safe one as well.

But just WHICH JESUS Christ should we go to and worship then- if not Rome? The Mormon Jesus? The New Age Jesus? Maybe this new LBGTQXYZ trendy Jesus?
Or Luther's, Calvin's- Henry VIII's Jesus?
Or back in the day - Arias' Jesus? The one of the Docetists, Gnostics, the Manichaeans? Or even those pesky Nestorians... THEIR Jesus?...

Or maybe just my Jesus- as my own personal Jesus and Savior? Who loves me for who I am... No strings attached?
The point being is.. that if everybody gets to choose the Jesus that is right for them- then no one can be wrong because there is no authority. And in that scheme, EVEN a Catholic Jesus of Rome cannot be declared as wrong or unworthy of worship.

As they say, it's all good... meaningless, but good...
17 posted on 10/19/2021 9:23:27 PM PDT by MurphsLaw (Be Willing to march into hell with a Heavenly cause, and of couse, "Keep Going".)
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To: MurphsLaw
Christ is the Church.

Once again, that statement is not true. Both Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI, and St Paul, have taught that the Church is the Bride of Christ.

Consequently the Immaculate Virgin, who marks "the very beginning of the Church, Bride of Christ, without spot or wrinkle, shining with beauty" (Preface), always precedes the People of God in the pilgrimage of faith, bound for the Kingdom of Heaven (cf. Lumen Gentium, n. 58; Redemptoris Mater, n. 2). John Paul II HOMILY OF JOHN PAUL II

Finally, the Holy Father (Benedict XVI) touched on the recurring theme of "the Church as the bride of Christ.” According to St. Paul, the Pope said, Christ has "won" his bride, the Church, by giving his life for her, “the greatest possible demonstration of love."Pope explores St. Paul's teaching on the Church as Bride of Christ

18 posted on 10/19/2021 10:14:18 PM PDT by ebb tide (Where are the good fruits of the Second Vatican Council? Anyone?)
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To: MurphsLaw

The Holy Spirit guided the College of Cardinals to install Francis?

I’m sorry, but you just nuked your own case.

If that’s an example of what is considered the Holy Spirit’s guidance of Catholic hierarchy, it only gives someone all the more reason so avoid the Catholic religion.

That cannot possibly be an example of the Catholic’s claims of God protecting His church.

God gives the criteria for selection of church leaders in 1 Timothy and Titus. The Catholic hierarchy would do well to use that criteria and until it does, I cannot fathom why anyone would voluntarily place themselves under such ungodly leadership.

No one is expecting perfection from a human being, but there’s a huge difference between human frailty and weakness, and outright rejection of God’s principles and Scripture.


19 posted on 10/20/2021 12:51:06 AM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith…)
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To: MurphsLaw

Christ is not the church.

Christ is Christ and the church is the body of believers who is His Bride.

But they are not interchangeable.


20 posted on 10/20/2021 12:53:09 AM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith…)
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