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The Theological Illiteracy of “Dare We Hope?”
Crisis Magazine ^ | May 6, 2021 | Clement Harrold

Posted on 05/07/2021 8:50:03 AM PDT by ebb tide

The Theological Illiteracy of “Dare We Hope?”

It has rightly been said that in order to appreciate the “Good News” of salvation we first need to recognize the bad news of damnation. This point appears to have been lost on the likes of Bishop Robert Barron with his echoing of 20th century Swiss theologian Hans Urs von Balthasar’s suggestion that we might reasonably hope that all men are saved. In a recent Sunday sermon, Barron is careful to affirm that the “fullness of salvation” lies in Jesus alone, yet he immediately follows this with the observation that all the other major religions of the world can participate in this salvation offered by Christ. 

The case which Barron develops is made on the basis of Lumen Gentium 16, as well as John Henry Newman’s description of conscience as the “aboriginal vicar of Christ in the soul.” What the good bishop neglects to mention, however, is that this same John Henry Newman was deeply pessimistic about the eternal prospects of those outside the Church. Like Augustine, Newman felt compelled on the basis of Scripture to believe in the massa damnata, a position which takes literally Christ’s words that only few will enter the gate to eternal life (see Matthew 7:14). 

The soteriological realism of Augustine and Newman stands in stark contrast to the quasi-universalist view adopted by Bishop Barron.


(Excerpt) Read more at crisismagazine.com ...


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Moral Issues
KEYWORDS: barron; heresy
In pressing the case, moreover, one might challenge dare-we-hope advocates like Bishop Barron as to what would happen if we were to take their position to its logical conclusion. For instance, can we really hope that not a single human being will ever die in a state of unrepentant mortal sin? Or again, dare we hope that the Church has simply overblown this whole issue of salvation for the past two millennia? And finally, dare we go so far as to hope that purgatory, too, is empty? In each case, our answer remains the same: no, we daren’t.
1 posted on 05/07/2021 8:50:03 AM PDT by ebb tide
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To: MurphsLaw; Al Hitan; DuncanWaring; Fedora; irishjuggler; Jaded; JoeFromSidney; kalee; ...

Ping


2 posted on 05/07/2021 8:51:02 AM PDT by ebb tide (We have a rogue curia in Rome.)
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To: ebb tide
A fair article for sure. Attacking the debate- RATHER THAN the person... it was a good read....

I did notice you happen to cut the article a little short... even for an excerpt... as I was surprised to read the author's praise - in the very next line before you cut it off:

"No doubt His Excellency’s gifts as a theologian and pastor are considerable and his contributions to the modern Church immense.

The debate STILL lacks reference to, and ignores the Church's OWN Catechism:

1821 We can therefore hope in the glory of heaven promised by God to those who love him and do his will. In every circumstance, each one of us should hope, with the grace of God, to persevere "to the end" and to obtain the joy of heaven, as God's eternal reward for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ. In hope, the Church prays for "all men to be saved." She longs to be united with Christ, her Bridegroom, in the glory of heaven:

Its the Church's teaching - not making it up...
and we often forget .... Hope is a virtue too...
3 posted on 05/07/2021 9:17:11 AM PDT by MurphsLaw (“speak against the holy Ghost, it shall not be Forgiven him, in this world, NOR in the world to come)
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To: MurphsLaw
The key words in the sentence you quoted are "...to the modern church immense."

What's "the modern church", Murph?

Did your "modern church" start in 1962?

And then you, like a true modernist, go on to quote your flawed modern catechism which is highly flawed.

Bottom line: Jesus did not lie when He warned us souls would be going to Hell, despite what you, Barron, the modern Church and its modern catechism claim otherwise.

4 posted on 05/07/2021 12:56:27 PM PDT by ebb tide (We have a rogue curia in Rome.)
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To: ebb tide

There’s something a bit pathological about people who want others to go to hell. Why would we not hope and pray for everyone to escape damnation thru the mercy of God?


5 posted on 05/07/2021 1:43:38 PM PDT by Marchmain (life is sacred)
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To: ebb tide
Scripture says flatly in at least two places that God desires that all men be saved and come to knowledge of the truth. That didn't start in 1962.

We ought to hope that God gets what he desires. I think we have a pretty clear expectation from Scripture and our own practical experience that, in the final analysis, he doesn't. But still, we should want what God wants without exception or qualification.

6 posted on 05/07/2021 2:21:07 PM PDT by Campion (What part of "shall not be infringed" don't they understand?)
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To: Marchmain; Campion

There’s something pathological about those who falsely claim their fellow catholic posters on this forum want people to go to Hell.

It’s called bearing false witness.


7 posted on 05/07/2021 2:30:47 PM PDT by ebb tide (We have a rogue curia in Rome.)
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To: ebb tide
If only we could turn back time...

Since you asked,
I consider the Modern Church to have begun in the mid 19th century- with the Immaculate Conception doctrine- the end of the Papal States and the entry of those new thinkers to the Faith like Cdl. John Henry Newman... and the new intellectualism of Faith....
When electricity took hold....
8 posted on 05/07/2021 2:40:52 PM PDT by MurphsLaw (“speak against the holy Ghost, it shall not be Forgiven him, in this world, NOR in the world to come)
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To: ebb tide
No one is saying hell doesn't exist.
Yes, so it does then exist for a reason.
Our focus should be on avoidance, for ourselves and everyone else - but divine Mercy is not ours to intervene with.

Corrie Ten Boom is a relatable example for this- in how God can - and does- work within us.
With God...All things are possible... We should always Hope for that - and that's where are focus should be...
9 posted on 05/07/2021 2:54:35 PM PDT by MurphsLaw (“speak against the holy Ghost, it shall not be Forgiven him, in this world, NOR in the world to come)
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To: MurphsLaw

No one is saying hell doesn't exist.
Yes, so it does then exist for a reason.

If one hopes no one goes to Hell now, in the past or in the future, one thus hopes Hell is empty.

If Hell is empty, what is it's reason for existence, Murph? Just to scare us into being good little boys and girls?

Was Jesus just scaring us; and not telling us the Truth?

10 posted on 05/07/2021 3:28:22 PM PDT by ebb tide (We have a rogue curia in Rome.)
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To: MurphsLaw

Pope St. Pius X would have probably agreed with you.

That’s why he fought the modernists so hard throughout his papacy in the beginning of the 20th century.

Unfortunately, the modernists finally got their way with VCII, the new Mass, the new Bible, the new catechism and their New Pentecost.


11 posted on 05/07/2021 3:42:41 PM PDT by ebb tide (We have a rogue curia in Rome.)
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To: MurphsLaw

The hope is individual by individual.

If time were to slow down and permit such an exercise, the Church could gaze individually upon every human being alive, recognize the kernel or seed of the divine in each such person, and legitimately hope that each such person, in turn, exercises their free will in such a way as to to make the individual choice to husband that kernel or seed, to deliberately cooperate with God’s grace, to fear, and to tremble, and in so doing, to work out his or her salvation.

In every era, the Church has witnessed at least some of its brothers deliberately grind that kernel or seed underfoot. The Church knows that this behavior—final impenitence—defiantly spitting right in the eye of the Holy Ghost—angrily slapping away the soothing caress of the Blessed Virgin Mary—during the last moments before death, is perfectly incompatible with salvation. It is consistently met with implacable justice and, ultimately, a “zero” measure of mercy at each such person’s individual or personal judgement. Such person is saying, once again, using their own free will, which God is obliged to repect: I choose Hell.

Doing this instantly earns one a first class one way ticket to the hot place, no refunds, no returns. Such people CANNOT legitimately be imagined as having potentially avoided eternal perdition.

Nothing can be gained, and a great deal lost, in pretending that EVERY human upon which the Church gazes longingly and lovingly as described above will ultimately exercise their free will to make the choice to husband the kernel or seed gifted to them by God. SOME there are at all times who, at death, deliberately reject Heaven, and embrace Hell. Let us all, please, refuse to waste another minute or ounce of energy imagining or “hoping” that even one of those people was or is or ever can be (consistent with the divine economy) awarded with an eternal fate that does not match their final choice!


12 posted on 05/08/2021 2:57:52 AM PDT by one guy in new jersey
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To: one guy in new jersey
I get that.... and I accept that in principle .... but then you run into what we can be... what we might hope for.
Read the Corrie Ten Boom story.... we would commit her enemies to hell. She won’t. We would equally want Pope JP2’s would-be assassin to spend eternity in hell. JP2 does not.
Divine Mercy is not ours to play with. Forgiveness of our sins is multi-dimensional and yes, very difficult to rationalize.There’s Always “more to the story” then just the up or down- black and white- Christian thinking that Can take God’s will away from us....
13 posted on 05/08/2021 9:47:36 AM PDT by MurphsLaw (“speak against the holy Ghost, it shall not be Forgiven him, in this world, NOR in the world to come)
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