Posted on 01/16/2021 6:02:02 AM PST by Hebrews 11:6
These Maudeens are a clever bunch.
“You think Jesus went voluntarily? I didn’t realize he had a choice.... People get mad at me, but I believe we have somewhat of a cruel God....not Jesus...jus God. He always so much pain, suffering, cruelty....for innocents. Just always bothered me..”
God had a choice from the very beginning of Creation. He could make independent beings who would sin or He could not. If He made them, He’d have to die for them to save them. That is when the choice for Jesus’ death occurred and the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all agreed, before Creation.
All time is laid out before God. He sees every choice and alternative by every creature. He exists in all time simultaneously. This is so far beyond us it’s barely imaginable.
We see the cruelty and pain of sin. Sin comes from freedom of choice. With no freedom of choice there is no sin, but also no salvation. All the pain is worth it for the eternal salvation of mankind.
Personally, I believe God Himself feels every pain every person suffers. That is speculation on my part, based on His omniscience.
You argue for a temporary and brief forsaking, but there is a counterargument for a kind of permanent abandonment.
How can Jesus, by a "mere" six hours of excruciation followed by physical death, adequately atone for my sins and yours, to stand in for our eternity in hell that we justly deserve? The answer may be, in some tens of billions of extra dimensions that God has complete freedom to create, that Jesus voluntarily is still on that cross for all eternity--indeed, a separate "version" of Him for each one of us."
I've never heard of a permanent abandonment. Where did you hear such a thing? Rather, scripture shows Jesus on the cross for six hours, 9 am to 3 pm. The sun was darkened at noon, and just before 3 pm Jesus cried, 'My God, My God ...'.
There's actually no revelation Jesus was abandoned at all. That is speculation. Rather, in John 17, Jesus says He and His Father are one. I suspect Jesus did not feel God on the cross, just as we don't always feel God, but I think God felt all His pain.
Regarding the sufficiency of His sacrifice, how six hours on the cross (and the scourging--which was almost enough to kill Him) was sufficient for the sins of all mankind, consider that God is infinite. His death in Christ pays for infinite sins. Indeed, I feel God overpaid for the salvation of mankind, even if we grow to Googleplex in number across the universe.
Ultimately, the scourging finally did kill Him, through blood loss leading to cardiac arrest. Crucifixion is known colloquially as "the moving death," because to breathe the sufferer must constantly lift himself to draw a breath; that prevented Jesus' back wounds from coagulating over those six hours. For perhaps the definitive study of the physiologic trauma inherent in Jesus' crucifixion, see this 14-page article by engineer and physician Dr, Alex Metherell, which makes that argument persuasively. It is compelling reading.
Where did you hear such a thing?
Dr. Hugh Ross has advanced this theory several times verbally, although I don't recall if his voluminous writings include it. I'll make a cursory search today on his Reasons to Believe website.
God is infinite. His death in Christ pays for infinite sins.
That Jesus' death was sufficient is settled. How Jesus' death was sufficient is (a) subsidiary and (b) speculative. I suspect we'll learn "how" eventually, but I know we will celebrate its fact eternally.
Thank you so much for this beautiful thread! I couldn't help but also follow your conversation. I love to discuss Jesus!
A few Scriptures come to mind. We have no other Jesus than the Jesus of Scripture. Any other Jesus than He who is revealed in the Bible is a god made up by man, on the same level as worshiping unicorns.
As soon as Jesus had taken the wine, He said, "It is finished." And then, bowing His head, He yielded up His spirit.
John 19:30But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,
Hebrews 10:12And when sins have been forgiven, there is no need to offer any more sacrifices.
Hebrews 10:18For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit,
1 Peter 3:18But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked intently into heaven and saw the glory of God and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”…
Acts 7:55-56"But from now on the Son of Man shall be seated at the right hand of the power of God.”
Luke 22:69If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
Colossians 3:1The Lord says to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.”
Psalm 110:1Looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
Hebrews 12:2He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high
Hebrews 1:3
These verses show that Jesus himself said, "It is finished," and other verses back this up by saying his sacrifice for sin was "once for all," and "no sacrifice for sins is left."
Then there are the OODLES of verses that show Jesus at God's right hand, usually seated as on a throne, except when he stood to receive Stephen, the church's first martyr (his story would make a nice paintings thread!).
Thanks immensely for taking the substantial time and effort, and exercising your considerable faith and knowledge, to post such a series of verses relevant to the issue. Given the inclination, I could have done likewise, though perhaps not with quite your alacrity.
You've presented a formidable and indeed conclusive case for the proposition that I never doubted or questioned. But as we've seen too many times to argue, God's Word often contains deeper meanings (not implying gnostically). All of those Scriptures' veracity still admit the possibility that I suggested. I'm merely saying this may be one of the innumerable surprises we will surely encounter.
I join with you in your love of discussing Jesus.
“I join with you in your love of discussing Jesus.”
Amen!
I saw Jesus in person once, though we did not speak--and I have a living witness who attests every word.
It was 1983 and Cheryl and I had been married for nearly five years. My Christian employer (and mother in the faith) sent all the Christian couples to the South Coast Plaza Hotel in Costa Mesa for an all-weekend marriage-strengthening conference, Enjoying Marriage, wonderfully hosted by Ron and Betty Wiseman. Its theme was Ecclesiastes 4:12, "A cord of three strands is not quickly broken": make Jesus the third strand of your marriage.
On Saturday evening all 35 couples were standing and praying, spouses holding each others' hands, heads bowed and eyes closed. Suddenly, through my closed eyes I saw Jesus walk directly to Cheryl and me, through the table in front of us, and add his hand to ours, as that third strand. He said nothing, nor did He look up--His head was bowed, too, so I couldn't see His face. But I knew with certainty Who it was.
You learn a lot about yourself in unique situations. I learned that I'm like Peter, who broke up the Mount of Transfiguration because he couldn't bite his tongue. I broke it up by turning to Cheryl and whispering (the prayer leader was still talking), "Did you see that?" She did! But Jesus was gone, at least from right in front of us.
Why did He pick us? I can think of at least these reasons:
* He knew I would tell the Wisemans, who had me relate the story to everyone on Sunday morning.
* He knew I would tell the world, which as you can see I'm still doing.
* He knew our marriage faced significant stresses which absolutely require Him to be its third strand, and we are happily married now in our forty-third year.
Postscript
Cannot resist adding this related vignette. Cheryl and I were standing in the hall admiring the view when three people emerged from the elevator: a groom in his tuxedo, a bride in her white wedding gown, and the bellhop pushing their luggage cart. The bellhop produced his passkey (it was 1983) and opened the roomdoor, about twenty feet from us. The groom masterfully hoisted his bride and carried her across the threshold, the bellhop followed, and the door shut. Having seen Jesus half an hour prior, we two old pros hoped this new marriage would have Him as its third strand, too.
When that door reopened a moment later, the bellhop appeared as expected, but then so did the happy couple, all three trying to pretend we weren't still standing there watching. All three went to the room next door, the bellhop repeated his unlocking, the groom repeated his hoisting, and they disappeared once again. And we fell on the floor laughing, at least figuratively.
Every day i see tons of animals suffering, alot I personally care or have cared for. HOw is that sin? Animals can't sin. I also see alot of poor people trying to make it ... living in crime infested areas and so poor....so many other them still praise God for...and are good people. How are they sinners?? If you think about it, look what GOd did to his own son...Jesus? I see too much and suffer with heartbreaks and unnecessary suffering almost every single day...
You are, of course, entirely correct that animals cannot sin. Yet animals suffer in this world. God designed predators to benefit their prey by eliminating the aged, weak, injured and sick, thus preventing starvation through overgrazing and resulting in larger numbers of healthy animals. But human sin often causes unnecessary pain and cruelty to innocent animals, and humans will continue doing that until the new creation; the Bible describes animals enjoying an idyllic existence then, with the lion lying down peacefully with the lamb.
You ask about suffering people, "How are they sinners??" Everyone is a sinner (see Romans 3). Sin is defined as "missing the mark." What mark is that? Start with the Ten Commandments: everyone has broken several. Jesus explained that just breaking one "in your heart" is all it takes. Ever tell a lie, or have a lustful thought, or covet others' possessions, or steal something, or hate someone? Everyone, when they're honest, admits doing those. And God won't let sinners into heaven, because it is a refuge from sin; He lets in only those whose slates have been wiped clean by Jesus and are willing to let God remake them into saints—being born again.
God is determined that billions will experience a joyful eternity with Him. But it takes thousands of years for that many to accept Him, generation after generation. God gives every person two opportunities: first, to discover their sinfulness and need for a Savior; second, to accept Jesus.
In the meantime, the world is full of people who abuse one another. This world is rapidly drawing to a close, and God is ridding the universe of evil absolutely as quickly as possible. Then, those who have Jesus as Lord and Savior will never see sin again.
Every day i see tons of animals suffering, alot I personally care or have cared for. HOw is that sin? Animals can't sin. Right. Animals don't sin, but sin causes suffering. A lot of human behavior leads to diseases or pollution that hurt animals. The sad fact is that our sin doesn't just hurt us, it hurts others and it hurts God.
I also see alot of poor people trying to make it ... living in crime infested areas and so poor....so many other them still praise God for...and are good people. How are they sinners??
They are sinners because they are human. They may or may not have caused or contributed to their suffering, but regardless, some sin did. God didn't intend people to be poor. That's a result of man rejecting God at the garden of Eden. When we sin, we cut ourselves off from God and His guidance and go it alone. That'll lead to the survival of the fittest, usually by dictatorship and oppression. Under God's rule, we'd have rulers by a Servant-leader who died for us.
If you think about it, look what GOd did to his own son...Jesus? I see too much and suffer with heartbreaks and unnecessary suffering almost every single day...
Yes, all suffering is unnecessary. But we choose it every time we sin.
God is of one mind and one will regarding Jesus' sacrifice. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all agreed on His sacrifice before the creation of anything. God, being all-knowing, knew when He created independent beings, they would sin. He planned to save us before He made us. As our Creator, Jesus' life is worth more than all of our lives, and thus, by His suffering and death in our place, all our sins are paid for.
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