The Bible Says

Thanks for all of your feedback. It was a bit overwhelming to read it all. I do not have time to respond to everything. But I’ll address some basic elements of the issue under discussion.

“Consequently, this verse should be translated correctly as the original Greek meant, ‘There remains, therefore, Sabbath-keeping for the people of God’—Jew and Gentile alike.”

Adding “Jew and Gentile alike” is adding to scripture. Hebrews was written to Hebrew Christians who were tempted to return to the easier life of Judaism and synagogue attendance to avoid persecution. It is not an option to simply force one’s view upon the text. The text must speak for itself.

It is not a commentator’s opinion but the passage itself that provides a spiritual application to Sabbath-keeping. The context is that this passage is a commentary on Psalms which is a commentary on Moses which is the historical account of the Israelites rebelling 10 times and losing their opportunity to enter the promised land.

The apostles had to deal with two extremes when it came to matters of false teaching on the Law of Moses: the Judaizers (who tried to force Gentile believers to keep the Law of Moses) and the antinomians (who advocated Jews abandon the Law of Moses). The early church struggled with forming a cohesive community of believers with a mixture of Jews who continued to follow the law of Moses and Gentiles who did not.

I continue to stress that this is the most important line of demarcation. The law of Moses, in its outward codification, is for the Jews. There are spiritual lessons and application of all scriptures for Jews and Gentiles.

When it comes to the Sabbath, it is only ever commanded to Jews in scripture, and to Gentiles when in the land of Israel. All efforts to impose its practice on Gentile believers is unbiblical. Like circumcision, treating the Sabbath rest as a command means you must keep the whole law.

Re-read Galatians 5 and Acts 15. There is simply no way to reconcile your position on Sabbath keeping with these passages. My delineation is according to the Bible. Jews and Gentiles are to remain in the status in which they are called. The Gospel does NOT call Gentiles to convert to Judaism.

We all need physical rest. The command to work 6 days and rest on the Sabbath was specifically to the Jews. There is wisdom to follow, and there is a spiritual principle to apply. But Gentile believers are NOT bound to rest on the Sabbath.

And as I pointed out, the Sabbath was made at creation, for MAN, not specifically the JEW, and of course Jesus confirmed that in Mark. Anyone who claims to follow God keeps His commandments, and that includes the 4th, the one that says “remember”. Specifically note Abraham. HE WAS NOT A JEW, yet he almost certainly kept it. (all God’s laws, statutes, commandments). Moses put it all down in writing. God initially chose a specific people, the Jews, to he his people, his example. Many of them messed up (not all). He gave them 3.5 more literal years to get it right after His crucifixion. It didn’t happen. Now comes the chance of salvation for everyone else. Old testament: If you do these things I ask of you, I will make you a special people and bless you, etc... New covenant. I will put my laws into your hearts and you will know me, etc... The bible also says we are going to keep it in heaven.

As grafted in followers of Christ, we are commanded to obey him, same when it was for the Jew only. Simple as that. There is no distinction between Jew or Gentile. We are all one in Christ, if you follow Christ. If you are a Jew and don’t follow Christ, then you are still a Jew, or Muslim, or Buddhist, or whatever.

Romans 2: 10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11For there is no respect of persons with God. 12For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

It seems pretty important if we will all be keeping it in heaven, right?

“And as I pointed out, the Sabbath was made at creation, for MAN, not specifically the JEW, and of course Jesus confirmed that in Mark. Anyone who claims to follow God keeps His commandments, and that includes the 4th, the one that says ‘remember’.”

That’s completely out of context. The religious leaders had turned the law into a technical document, apart from the underlying relationship with the Lawgiver, who was standing right in front of them while they were oblivious to this. They had lists of things you could and could not do on the Sabbath that missed the whole point. They even tried to impose their version of Sabbath-keeping on Christ Himself, but He reproved them. Frankly, it is not unlike those who would try to impose their version of Sabbath-keeping on Gentile Christians. There remains a REST for the people of God, NOT a WORK. Stop trying to make the Sabbath a chore to do or a boundary to stay within. It is a spiritual principle that Jews are commanded to live out and illustrate by their daily schedule.

These religious leaders who confronted Christ were abusive and hypocritical in their application of the law. You are twisting this to try to impose on Gentiles an external conformity to something even the Jews (to whom it was given) failed to do. You turn it into yet one more thing Christians must DO, when the message is really about CEASING to DO our own works and to stop living by our own righteousness (self-effort) and submit to God’s righteousness (by grace).

If anyone wants to argue the BENEFIT of taking a day off every week to rest, I have no problem. The scriptures demonstrate there is a benefit. It IS FOR man. If anyone suggests Christians would benefit from doing so together, to the extent they are able, I see a possible benefit there too. If some advocate using this time to fast, I’d say more power to you. But all of these things MUST be voluntary. No one should ever be excluded from Christian community for not doing so. No one should be made to feel ashamed, inadequate, or sinful because they failed to rest on the Sabbath. Sometimes there is work that needs to be done, even on the Sabbath. And being Spirit-led means being available to do this work whenever He directs. And Christ healing on the Sabbath illustrates this plainly.

But you are turning the grace of Christ into self-effort. And there is no end to this. It is a complete departure from the Gospel of Christ. The apostles made this very clear, but you choose to ignore them. Christ, in contrast to the tablets in the ark (which were NOT written by God’s finger), wrote in the sand and did so to illustrate how our breaking of God’s law would be erased when we come to Him for mercy.

“Specifically note Abraham. HE WAS NOT A JEW, yet he almost certainly kept it. (all God’s laws, statutes, commandments).”

That is pure speculation.

God gave the Jews the Passover to remember their redemption in Egypt. He gave them Sabbaths to remember the first Sabbath as a pattern. They also do not mix milk and meat at all as a way to distinguish themselves from the idolatrous nations. Yet Abraham ate meat with milk and served the same to God Himself, who ate this meal. There is not a single instance of Abraham or any other Old Testament saint observing the Sabbath in the biblical record before the law of Moses was given. In the endless toils of Noah, Jacob, and the Hebrew slaves of Egypt there is not a single mention of a day of rest.

“Moses put it all down in writing. God initially chose a specific people, the Jews, to he his people, his example. Many of them messed up (not all).”

Yes, many centuries passed before God put these things in writing. But there is no historical record of Sabbath keeping before God gave this commandment to Moses for Israel.

“The bible also says we are going to keep it in heaven.”

No, it doesn’t. It says that the New Moon and Sabbaths will continue to exist and that all people will worship perpetually. Further, both the Jewish way of observing the New Moon and the Sabbath are specifically referred to as “shadows of things to come” here:

Colossians 2:11-17 (NKJV)
In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

Circumcision for Gentiles is ONLY spiritual and symbolic of what God does to our hearts. The New Moon AND SABBATHS are the same. You are ignoring and disobeying the scriptures which Paul gave us with apostolic authority and inspiration of the Holy Spirit. You are attempting to make Gentile followers of Christ subject to the OUTWARD expression of the Law rather than what God said He would do, which is to give us a new heart.

“As grafted in followers of Christ, we are commanded to obey him, same when it was for the Jew only. Simple as that. There is no distinction between Jew or Gentile. We are all one in Christ, if you follow Christ. If you are a Jew and don’t follow Christ, then you are still a Jew, or Muslim, or Buddhist, or whatever.”

Muslims and Buddhists are practitioners of a different religion that is incompatible with Christianity. A Jew who is ethnically Jewish, a descendant of Jacob, and believes on Christ for salvation, is still a Jew. A Jew who practices Judaism is able to continue to do so as a Christian because the religious system of Judaism is not in conflict with Christianity. However, there is NO reason for Gentiles to convert to Judaism. The distinction is clearly laid out in Acts, as I’ve already demonstrated repeatedly.

The dividing wall separating Jews and Gentiles was broken down. Likewise men and women come to Christ on the same basis. This does not mean men and women are no longer men and women. It does not mean Jews cease to be Jews (antinomianism) or that Gentiles become Jews (the error of the Judaizers).

“God’s moral 10 commandment law is not part of the ‘law of Moses’ It was IN the Ark of the Covenant, not on the SIDE of it. Big difference.”

And God gave them to Israel, not the Church. We have Christ’s commandments and the spiritual application of the Law of Moses.

2 Corinthians 3:3-6 & 17 (NKJV)
Clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart. And we have such trust through Christ toward God. Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life...
Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

The Gentiles who first received the Gospel were already well-acquainted with Judaism.

Acts 15:21 (NKJV)
For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.

If the Gentiles had wanted to convert they already had that opportunity. But the Gospel came to those who had not become Jews. And they didn’t need to do so.

The Gentiles already knew about the Sabbath but DID NOT keep it. They knew not to murder, blaspheme, steal, bear false witness. But there were a few things they did need to follow:

Acts 15:24-29 (NKJV)
Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law”—to whom we gave no such commandment— it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.

See what part of the Law the Gentiles needed to learn and implement:

1. No idolatry, including eating food offered to idols. (The Gospel requires devotion to the One true God.)
2. No consuming blood, including the specific instruction of the Law of Moses prohibiting them from eating anything that had been strangled. (When God first allowed eating meat, He told Noah that the blood was not for consumption.)
3. And no sexual immorality, which is based on God’s moral law governing marriage.

Note also that there are moral absolutes in the Law of Moses that always applied to Gentiles. For example, God said He would drive out the inhabitants of the land for their sexual perversion in Leviticus 18:24. He never condemned the inhabitants for not observing the Sabbath, which they certainly did not.

The apostles soundly reproved the specific heresy you are pushing. You need to start listening instead of peddling the same failed, man-made doctrines. They are not from God.

Me: “And as I pointed out, the Sabbath was made at creation, for MAN, not specifically the JEW, and of course Jesus confirmed that in Mark. Anyone who claims to follow God keeps His commandments, and that includes the 4th, the one that says ‘remember’.”

You: That’s completely out of context.

Me: No it’s not. The bible is very clear that nothing changes in the moral law until the end of this earth.

You: The religious leaders had turned the law into a technical document, apart from the underlying relationship with the Lawgiver,

Me: True, but it was initially well intentioned. The Jews were taken captive in Daniel’s time because they failed to obey. They broke God’s law and they were warned of the consequences. And, their most grievous sin was related to breaking the Sabbath commandment. They made thousands of rules to ensure it never happened again. That was never intended by Christ. Many other rules were also made....eating, drinking, washing of hands, etc, etc, etc.

That doesn’t change anything from Christ’s standpoint in the keeping of the law. It’s a commandment. As Christians we are obligated to keep them, BECAUSE we are saved, not in order to be saved.

You: “You turn it into yet one more thing Christians must DO”

Me: Only if you love Christ: “If you love me, keep my commandments”

Me: “Specifically note Abraham. HE WAS NOT A JEW, yet he almost certainly kept it. (all God’s laws, statutes, commandments).”

You: That is pure speculation.

Me: More likely than not, seeing as how God describes them as “His Sabbaths” (continuation of weekly Sabbath keeping)

You: Colossians 2:11-17 (NKJV)
In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

Me: Compare Ezekiel 45:17. Paul is CLEARLY speaking about the CEREMONIAL law, not the MORAL law. The 7th day Sabbath is part of the MORAL law.

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.