Posted on 10/09/2020 6:01:41 AM PDT by Teleios Research
+1
Not just others, but while God knows what is in the heart of men, yet He uses both our expression of that as well as that of those we affected as testimony to the character of the heart." "I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars...Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. (Revelation 2:4-5)
Which testimony is also the basis for the sentencing of the wicked:
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. (Revelation 20:13)
However, this does not mean that the heart does not believe unto righteousness, with faith being counted for that, (Rm. 4:5; 10:10) any more than it means that things such as unbelief, lust, covetousness, pride, evil imaginations, etc. in the heart are not sins and a person can be damned just on that basis. For while in judgment God elicits the testimony of what came out of our heart in word and deed, yet what is in the heart of men is enough to condemn or justify one. Thus a mute invalid full paralytic person can both sin in heart and deny the Lord or believe unto righteousness. Which Roman Catholicism even affirms under its "baptism of desire" clause (though some TradCaths deny it). However, God made man to be able to express/reflect Him, and what we do displays what and who we really believe.
Many times gifts come with conditions. The gift of salvation has ALWAYS been conditional in both the OT and NT. Meeting the conditions placed upon the gift does not earn it.
I gave the example in an earlier post of Naaman. God offered him the free gift of healing but God put the condition of dipping in the Jordan river 7 times. Naaman’s dipping was an obedient work but it was necessary to receive the free gift and meeting the condition did not take away the freeness of the gift at all.
Since God offered Naaman this gift for free then there was nothing he could do to earn it...all he could do was choose to reject or accept the free gift. If Naaman choose to reject it then all he had to do was nothing and he would have gone on living with the disease. Had he choose to accept the gift he would meet the conditions God place upon on it.
He did not receive the free gift FIRST and THEN go and dip 7 times. He had to FIRST OBEY by meeting the conditions THEN receive the free gift. This is why there is no example in the Bible of disobedient people rejecting to obey God yet receiving God’s free gift anyway.
Again, as I pointed out in previous post in all the many. many examples in the Bible of men/women obeying God NOT THE FIRST time is ever said their obedience earned God’s free gift, that is, their obeying made the gift no longer free.
Faith is obedience.
Wow...you put words into the mouth of James that James never said.
James did not speak at all about being justified before men but before God. Men cannot justify but God can. Abraham obeyed God in offering Issac therefore he justified before God and by God not before men or by men.
Man is not justified by doing his own works.
Man IS justified by obeying God.
There were those in Galatia who had been lead astray from the NT by false teachers. These false teachers deceived those Galatians to quit obeying the truth, that is, they quit obeying the NT and went back to keeping the OT law thinking they could be justified by the works the OT law required.
So they had fallen from grace by having quit obeying the NT that does justify and returning back to keeping the OT law which does not justify.
In Rom 11 Paul is NOT contrasting grace from obedience but contrasting grace from works of merit.
In the context of Rom 11:1-6 God’s people has always been those who obey God. Back in OT times those that were God’s people were the ones who obeyed by not bowing to Baal, v4. In this ‘present time’ those who obey the NT gospel of Christ, v5. According to election of grace’ God chooses those that obey the NT gospel.
Earlier in the book of Romans Paul already stressed the necessity of obedience in obeying from the heart, then justified, Rom 6:17-18, then need to obey by believing and confessing to be saved Rom 10:9-10; the need to obey be submitting to baptism Rom 6:1-5.
So when Paul says God has not cast off His people, Rom 11:2, “God’s people” has always been, only been those who obey Him. God has never promised His free gift to those that will not obey Him.
You posted a long sermon to which I am not going to spend hours of my time responding.
I have asked more than once for someone, anyone to give just ONE example from the Bible of a disobedient person that did not obey God yet God justified that person anyway. Since such a person does not exist in the Bible it leaves your ‘sermon’ to me dead in its tracks.
In all cases in the Bible men FIRST obeyed THEN God justified them. Again, look at the order of events as Paul puts then in Rom 6:17-18:
1) were servants of sin
2) obeyed from the heart
3) then freed from sin-justified-servants of righteousness
Obedience BEFORE justification. (Please do not try and rewrite Rom 6:16-17 and change the order of events as Paul put them as so many people try to do).
I gave an example from the Bible of Naaman. God offered him a free gift of healing yet that free gift came with the condition of dipping 7 times in the Jordan river.
—Naaman did NOT FIRST receive the free gift THEN obey
—he would NEVER received the free gift as long as he disobeyed
—when Naaman did obey by dipping, it is NOT said his obedience earned the free gift therefore taking away the freeness of the gift
I can give you other examples from the Bible as Naaman (as I did with Jn 6:27) showing God’s gives free gifts WITH conditions and the condition must FIRST be met BEFORE receiving the free gift and NOT ONE TIME is it said the obedience in meeting the condition earned the free gift.
Those that follow Luther and his teachings can try and deny the fact free gifts come with conditions but cannot ever make this reality go away.
Faith is obedience. Men have been commanded to believe. So when men do choose to obey that command by believing then that belief/faith is obedience.
Belief in the NT is not just a mental assent of the mind, it is not just an acknowledgement of certain facts but belief is a word of action. A person can believe, acknowledge that Christ died for him but unless, until he obeys Christ Heb 5:9 and does the things Christ says Luke 6:46 then that belief is dead and worthless.
In Rom 6 Paul refutes the idea of salvation by grace alone.
Salvation is by God’s grace and man’s faithful obedience working together.
Not applicable.
God gives the new birth while we were yet sinners.
So I take it you aren’t saved and have no assurance of salvation??
That’s on you.
I won’t reason with a closed mind.
I do have salvation and assurance, like so many here.
“For this reason I also suffer these things, but I am not ashamed; for I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day.”
“Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.”
“He made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.…“
“And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
“He that hath the Son *hath life*; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
“These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may *know* that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.”
In His secure hand, sealed to the day the rest of me will be redeemed, made alive in Christ, and positionally seated in the heavenlies with Christ!
Thanks be to God for His indescribable Gift!!
I would venture to guess, that most of the time, if someone has no assurance of salvation at all, I would say they might not have any hope whatsoever, and may very well, spend a ton of time in the Lake of Fire. 🔥 That is their choice, however. Why would anyone deliberately choose to go to the Lake of Fire? I will never understand it. 🤗
“ Why would anyone deliberately choose to go to the Lake of Fire? I will never understand it. “
The desire for self-righteousness?
You’re using a strawman version of grace alone. Whoever told you that definition is either a liar or a moron.
I don’t care to discuss with anyone who won’t debate in good faith.
Considering that the crop of FRomans—at least the ones we contend with—have to argue against strawmen in order to try to defend their beliefs, of course they need closed minds.
Faith is not obedience. Faith, according to the dictionary, is complete trust or confidence in something or someone. Obedience (belief) is submission to authority. One has to put their trust in Christ (faith) and submit to His authority (obedience).
Men have been commanded to believe. The simple fact is, unless God changes the heart they will not. We are by nature steeped in rebellion to God and our hearts are evil and deceitful. Faith (or trust in Christ) is a gift from God where He opens our eyes and ears to hear the gospel and respond to His calling. And it is important to note that there are degrees of faith (or trust in the Lord) given to us by the Spirit.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God
1 Corinthians 12:9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit
Obedience is our adhering to that gift. Because of our rebellious heart, God has put His Spirit within us, to walk according to His ordiances and statutes.
Ezekiel 36:26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
So both faith and obedience are gifts given to us by God.
If anyone says that God has mercy upon us when, apart from his grace, we believe, will, desire, strive, labor, pray, watch, study, seek, ask, or knock, but does not confess that it is by the infusion and inspiration of the Holy Spirit within us that we have the faith, the will, or the strength to do all these things as we ought; or if anyone makes the assistance of grace depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, “What have you that you did not receive?” (1 Cor. 4:7), and, “But by the grace of God I am what I am” (1 Cor. 15:10).
Well I did, about 3 hours with my stiff arthritic fingers in seeking to respond with reason and Scripture to your myopic assertions, only to find you seem ignore much of refutes you and instead respond with more of the same specious reiterated argumentation and assertions.
I have asked more than once for someone, anyone to give just ONE example from the Bible of a disobedient person that did not obey God yet God justified that person anyway. Since such a person does not exist in the Bible it leaves your ‘sermon’ to me dead in its tracks.
Are you serious?
Nowhere and in no way did I argue that a soul that did not obey God (believing the gospel with repentant, effectual faith) was justified, and instead I taught (as told you in the second sentence of one of my second response to you yesterday which you seem averse to reading) "I nowhere provided anything that inferred that one could be justified while walking in disobedience, and to the contrary stated that the redeemed as those "who with contrite hearts place all their faith in the Divine Christ as the Lord and Savior, who died for our sins and is risen to reign in glory, (1 Peter 2:24; 328,22) and who declare this living faith in baptism and following their Lord with humble hearts, (Acts 8:36,37; 10:43–47; 15:7–9) and repent when convicted in heart of not doing so. (Psalm 34:218) Thanks be to God."
And thus Abraham was justified before he offered up Issac by faith, and was also justified as having living faith in the latter case, for in both cases it was by faith in God to do what Abraham could not do. In the first case, (Gn. 15:6) Abraham could not beget the innumerable descendants that God promised him, but
He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. (Romans 4:20-22)
And which faith is what justifies one today:
Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; (Romans 4:23-24)
And in the second case justification flowed from the first, for in order for God to fulfill His promise, Issac needed to live, and thus Abraham was willing to slay his only begotten son as commanded by the God He knew was real, "Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure." (Hebrews 11:19)
But if the latter case was when Abraham first become justified, then we have a clear contradiction btwn him and Moses and Paul. However, while who may have a hard time understanding this, the two are not in contradiction when understood (as I explained) in context, with Paul dealing with what actually appropriates justification, faith or works - and which is are not restricted to works of the Law, but (writing to Gentiles) plainly "not by works" (Eph. 2:9) "works of righteousness which we have done," (Titus 3-5) with the law being the epitome of justification being obtained thru comprehensive obedience. Meanwhile, as said, James never disallows effectual faith as justificatory but rightly condemns ineffectual faith as salvific, and illustrates that the faith that is salvific is that which goes together/effects works.
In all cases in the Bible men FIRST obeyed THEN God justified them. Again, look at the order of events as Paul puts then in Rom 6:17-18: 1) were servants of sin 2) obeyed from the heart 3) then freed from sin-justified-servants of righteousness Obedience BEFORE justification. (Please do not try and rewrite Rom 6:16-17 and change the order of events as Paul put them as so many people try to do).
It is not I who is trying and rewrite Rom 6:16-17 but you if as said and ignored, "if you think the obedience here is referring to becoming good and then receiving the gift of salvation as a consequence." For these souls being written to were the same ones who were told "to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the unGodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. (Romans 4:5; 5:1)
And rather than becoming obedient souls who were actually crucified to the world, then as shown and ignored, the sense in which they are said to be crucified servants of righteousness was positional, a status obtained by faith, and thus they were exhorted to actualize it:
repentant converts were not actually crucified, yet they positionally were and thus should live accordingly: Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. (Romans 6:3-4) Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. (Romans 6:12-13)
And thus the obedience that precedes forgiveness and justification is that of believing the gospel as is commanded (which only can be done as a result of God drawing, convicting, opening the heart, and granting repentance faith - glory to God) but it is neither the actual act/response of believing that merits justification or (as in Catholicism) a constitutional change that makes one good enough to be with God (or else we would always need to be so to be saved), but God justifieth the ungodly, with heart-purifying regenerating faith in the One who alone is Good, God, being imputed for righteousness, yet not distinct from regeneration, as conversion is one event.
For indeed God can require us to do something that requires humility and faith (for "The Lord is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit:" Psalms 34:18), but it faith behind the act that appropriates the salvation. And which is consistent with sola fide, as shown you substantially (though dichotomous thinking may disallow that) for the only faith the saves is that which effects obedience, but it is the former that is counted for righteousness. And as shown you, among other examples we have "And he said unto her, Daughter, be of good comfort: thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace." (Luke 8:48) Likewise we have,
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38)
Versus,
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. (Acts 10:43-44)
In the first case forgiveness and regeneration (which event Paul in Titus 3:5 calls the "washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost") are promised to those who will repent and get baptized, while the same Peter later only preaches "believe" and which result in the same. "Contradiction?" No, for to believe in the Lord Jesus means believe, and which means repent, and thus he washing of regeneration is to those who will believe=repent and be baptized, the latter signifying this faith) as well as believe and thus be baptized. For we see in the latter example that regeneration preceded baptism, though confession with the mouth manifested this faith:
And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? (Acts 10:45-47)
And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. (Acts 15:7-9)
Thus as said, we have promises of salvation conditional upon believing, (Jn. 3:15,16,36;5:24; 11:25; Acts 16:31) as well as conditional upon obeying, (Mt. 10:32; Heb. 5:9) since the former effects the latter. Also, since one needs to have the faith that is of a penitent humble heart, God can call us to do things which requires such of us, in order that we may have the character of faith that appropriates what God wants to give us. And thus there is no contradiction btwn promises of salvation conditional upon believing, as well as conditional upon obeying.
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