Posted on 09/07/2020 7:14:02 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
A few months back, some guy began flirting with my 19-year old daughter via her Instagram account. This is (unfortunately) pretty common, but much to my delight she does a great job with slamming the door in their face.
However, this particular guy was more persistent than usual and wouldn’t back off. His tenacity led my daughter to use her excellent technical sleuthing skills to find out exactly who he was.
Turns out the guy was a married youth pastor.
My daughter found him, his church, his wife, and other details. That presented us with the dilemma of whether we should contact his church and wife and inform them of the guy’s problematic pastime.
The experience also led my daughter to open up to my wife and me about the continuing disappointment she has with other supposed Christians. She and my older daughter have stopped going to church because they found those in the young adult groups to be far less kind, welcoming and authentic than those in their secular college crowds.
We got story after story from her of young Christian guys going on mission trips who end up attempting to molest the girls in their group. Witnessing first-hand episodes of drug use, outlandish lying and deception and similar behaviors from their peers (and their peer’s parents) have both my girls thinking that people in the church cannot be trusted in any way, shape or form.
Not exactly a pick-me-up kind of tale, huh?
But wait – aren't we told that Christians aren’t perfect, just forgiven? That if you ever find the perfect church, you shouldn’t join because you’ll spoil it (said Billy Graham and Charles Spurgeon)?
We say these things in hopes of convincing non-Christians that they shouldn’t let mistakes they’ve made in their life keep them from pursuing Christianity nor expect perfection from Christians when evaluating the faith. After all, the Bible tells us we all have a sin nature that causes us to fall short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23) and that, even after being born again, the same sin nature remains active and causes us to do wrong (Rom. 7).
But what if our critics are more right than we like to admit? What if hypocrisy and a spirit that is anything but Christlike typifies the Church’s behavior these days?
Studies done by David Kinnaman and his Barna group, which you can find summarized in books like unChristian and You Lost Me, show that the best argument against Christianity isn’t the problem of evil or any other apologetics-styled objection. Instead, it’s the lives lived out by professing Christians.
It’s what caused the German philosopher Nietzsche to say, “I might believe in the Redeemer if his followers looked more redeemed” and Gandhi to declare: “I like Christ, but I don’t like the Christians. The Christians are so unlike their Christ.”
We read in Scripture statements like, “Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come” (2 Cor. 5:17) and “Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life” (Rom. 6:4).
If this is true, why is it that the “new things” and “newness of life” in professing Christian’s lives either seem completely absent or appear so seldom?
It’s at this point that many church leaders throw out the ‘church isn’t perfect’ line in hopes of blunting the accusation. Frankly, I’m tired of hearing it.
We’ve gotten to the point where this excuse uses Paul’s admissions of struggling with sin in Romans 7 like some kind of permission slip; it goes beyond admitting that we sin to almost justifying persistent sinful behavior. Plus, it does nothing to address the very real problem of incongruent behavior that exists between Christ and His Church.
I’d like to suggest a couple of possible root causes for what Kinnaman and others observe along with some cures for the issues.
I believe the biggest source of this problem to be the fact that today’s Church is 9-months pregnant with unbelievers. I say this not judgmentally, but rather because I used to be one.
There’s nothing wrong with unbelievers being in Church. But, there’s everything wrong with them staying unbelievers.
So many who sit in the pews think that because they believe in God, they’re saved and safe. So, you believe in God, do you? Big deal.
The Pharisees believed in God and Jesus rhetorically asked them how they would escape the sentence of Hell (Matt. 23:33). James told his readers if that’s all they possessed then they had nothing more than the demons (James 2:19).
When you combine a reluctance from the pulpit to offend audiences about the truth of their sin with nothing more than a general acknowledgement from that crowd that God exists, you have everything needed for a false faith, false assurance, and a life that in no way will live out the teachings of Christ because, simply put, it lacks the power to do so (e.g. Rom. 8:7).
Instead of services that resemble a comfy group Youtube session, the Church needs straightforward teaching that speaks the truth in love about sin in a way that makes an unbeliever’s conscience and soul uncomfortable to the point where they seek help. Only then will the unbeliever in the pew become a true Christian and start exhibiting the fruit and changed life that confirms a true conversion has taken place (James 2).
Lately I’ve noticed a very bad trend in my own life. When frustrated or angered, in the heat of the moment, I’ve started to let foul language fly.
This hasn’t been something with which I’ve ever really wrestled, and it’s bothered me greatly because Jesus said: “the mouth speaks that which fills the heart” (Luke 6:45). After some contemplation, I think I know what’s going on.
My wife and I have been consistently streaming various drama series that, while containing good story lines and acting, are overloaded with bad language. I’m convinced my new problem with expletives is related to that which I’ve been constantly letting in my ear-gate.
The battle with our fallen nature is real. Paul confirms this when he says, “For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please” (Gal. 5:17). Ingesting a constant, bad diet through the eyes, ears, wrong relationships and actions will result in ungodly habits forming, just like the old Church proverb says:
Two natures beat within my breast
The one is foul, the one is blessed
The one I love, the one I hate.
The one I feed will dominate.
This is why we’re told: “sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it” (Gen. 4:7). Disregarding this truth and immersing oneself in the world is a recipe for disaster where Christlikeness is concerned.
Look how fast it happened to me.
The letters of Paul are full of admissions about the struggles with sin and our spiritual war. But let’s not forget that the same Paul who wrote those things also wrote:
Paul didn’t let the reality of Romans 7 keep him from pursuing the goal that is in front of you and me each morning: Christlikeness. In fact, Paul was so confident of his behavior that he exhorted others to mimic him.
Would you feel comfortable right now doing the same?
No, the Church isn’t perfect, but if we’re not careful, we’ll use that reality as a green-light to sluff off sin and before you know it, you’re a married youth pastor who makes sexual advances over the Internet to 19-year old girls.
And that’s one tragic place to be.
Robin Schumacher is an accomplished software executive and Christian apologist who has written many articles, authored and contributed to several Christian books, appeared on nationally syndicated radio programs, and presented at apologetic events. He holds a BS in Business, Master's in Christian apologetics and a Ph.D. in New Testament. His latest book is, A Confident Faith: Winning people to Christ with the apologetics of the Apostle Paul.
You said you did not necessarily accept Paul’s word as God’s word
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Is “Paul’s word” an assertion that one might freely sin (after sincerely affirming one’s faith in Jesus Christ) without repentance and still see the face of God? There seems to be no small group of people who believes that is Paul’s view.
Do you not believe that Paul wrote Scripture under the leading of the Holy Spirit?
Or do you think Paul just made up what he wrote and did so knowing that he was (allegedly) contradicting Jesus?
John 1:10-13 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 3:3-8 Jesus answered him,“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
John 3:14-18 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
John 20:30-31 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
Acts 16:27-31 When the jailer woke and saw that the prison doors were open, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself, supposing that the prisoners had escaped. But Paul cried with a loud voice, “Do not harm yourself, for we are all here.” And the jailer called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas. Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
Romans 10:9-13 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
That's your rule. You make repentance a precondition. God doesn't.
Paul's writings are not *part of Scripture*. They ARE Scripture*,
Also, you reject the God breathed Holy Spirit inspired Scripture that Paul wrote and yet look to *other* sources of authority?
That's rich.
Like what other sources of authority do we have that are definitively recognized as Truth on par with Scripture?
We are to call sin out where we see it and flee from it. Yes we still sin but sin should never. e “celebrated” as it is in some “churches”. I agree we do a terrible job if this for the most part
Our salvation is not based on our ability to or actual repentance of a specific sin. That's a works based salvation.
Our salvation is based on what Jesus did for us on the cross and that is that He paid for ALL our sins, past, present, and future.
The entire record of our sin debt that stood against us was nailed to the cross and God dealt with it there when Jesus took it on Himself.
Colossians 2:13-14 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.
We ALL freely sin.
ALL sin is a choice for the believer.
Nobody forces the believer to sin.
So yes, even if we sin after salvation, it does NOT cost us our salvation or place in heaven. We do not have to repent of every last specific sin to get into heaven.
God is not a petty nit-picky tyrant sitting up there keeping account of every misdeed so he can throw us in hell cause we didn't do what some religions think we should.
Repentance is not just turning from sin.
Anyone can turn from sin.
It's the turning to Christ that's the important part and that's where the repentance comes in
We are changing how we think about Christ
Repentance is not simply *God, I'm sorry for my sin and I promise not to do it again.*
It trusting in Christ to save us and not ourselves, which is what we are doing when we make the focus of repentance on our *repenting* from sin to save us.
Like what other sources of authority do we have that are definitively recognized as Truth on par with Scripture?
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Tradition, of course. The very earliest scripture was not even written until between 60-70 AD. There may have existed some written parables prior to that, but we no longer have them. A lot of scripture was written well after that. So, if no scripture existed (especially in the early decades), they obviously did NOT use scripture as a source of authority.
The Bible itself was not even codified until Nicea in 325 AD. There were whole centuries of Christian practice with only partial pieces of scripture her and there.
Them’s the facts.
Scripture is divinely inspired, but one must look at the totality of scripture along with Christian practice from the very earliest period of Christian practice.
Oh hey, look who’s back declaring from on high what he knows for a fact what Protestants believe.
Not only is your definition of “sola scriptura” a strawman, but it’s a strawman that you continue to prop up after being corrected many, many times.
Stop using strawmen, ADSUM! If Catholicism really is as great as you claim it is, you can defend it without using strawman arguments!
Tradition, of course.
***
Prove it.
So yes, even if we sin after salvation, it does NOT cost us our salvation or place in heaven. We do not have to repent of every last specific sin to get into heaven.
God is not a petty nit-picky tyrant sitting up there keeping account of every misdeed so he can throw us in hell cause we didn’t do what some religions think we should.
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I’m not talking about every last nit-picky sin. You tell your husband he looks great even though he’s a little portly...meh...it’s a white lie meant to boost his self esteem.
You hire a hitman to shoot your husband between the eyes in order to collect life insurance, repentance is necessary.
Prove it.
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You go first. Prove that Scripture alone is the sole basis of authority. Explain how it was authority between, say 33AD (when Christ died) until 325 AD when the Bible was compiled. And especially explain how it was authority in the decades before Paul even wrote his very first letter (which not all Christians even had).
The reason we have stopped going to our church is because three girls who attend the same church bullied our daughter and nothing was done about it. We were offered the chance to let our daughter go to a Sunday school class for older kids or let her go “help” in the nursery during Sunday school. My husband has spoken to the regional office for the Presbyterian Church trying to find our what their policy on bullying is but he’s gotten the runaround so far.
So the author states that his Christian daughter of 19 has an Instagram account that routinely gets hit on. Sometimes vigorously to the point she has to examine the people carefully and in detail. Maybe he should examine the behavior and message she is Putting out via instagram. His message and drama sounds exactly like what a 19 year old girl likes to talk about. This is from experience.
One of “many” was a youth pastor. Expose him or not but don’t let it go. Challenge sin. I would not paint so broadly that his or her behavior indictes the body of the church. Maybe it does. But he needs to take a look at the message his daughter is putting out before writing this type of long winded self absorption.
What a surprise.
The very earliest scripture was not even written until between 60-70 AD. There may have existed some written parables prior to that, but we no longer have them. A lot of scripture was written well after that. So, if no scripture existed (especially in the early decades), they obviously did NOT use scripture as a source of authority.
What a bunch of nonsense.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
The earliest copies of the NT that we have are not the originals. Those were lost, or deliberately destroyed, and the claim that nothing was written down until Roman Catholicism came in to save the day, and voila, tradition now = Scripture is nothing more that a bogus power grab for Catholicism to usurp Scripture.
Also, the entire OT was already written down and widely circulated so Catholicism's claims to authoring that is even more bogus.
And here we have Paul telling the Colossian church this......Colossians 4:15-16 Give my greetings to the brothers at Laodicea, and to Nympha and the church in her house. And when this letter has been read among you, have it also read in the church of the Laodiceans; and see that you also read the letter from Laodicea.
IOW, Paul's epistles were circulating at the time he was still alive, which proves that Catholicism's claims to giving us Scripture and relying on tradition until much later, was a complete lie fabricated by those within Catholicism who wanted to be on par with God.
Only in human economy.
James 2:8-11 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
In God's economy, sin is sin and ALL sin damns and ALL sin needed the death of Jesus to deal with.
All Adam and Eve did was eat a piece of fruit and that was enough for sin to enter the world and damn them.
Y'all don't realize that it's not the magnitude of the sin as measured by human standards. It's the holy God even the tiniest sin violates and disobeys.
So *big* (in human terms) and *small* (in human terms), makes no difference because both sins are committed against the same God and what makes it sin is not the sin itself, but the disobedience against God that ANY sin is.
Why?
He asked first.
And now you’re sending him on some rabbit trail hoping to distract him and get off topic?
Why don’t you just up and straight out answer?
Is it because you can’t and by throwing the ball back into his court, maybe you’re hoping he’ll forget about it?
We’ve seen that tactic played way too many times to fall for it. *You answer first and then I will*, and it never happens. Not buying what you’re selling today.
That’s reprehensible.
My kids have had their share of watching the bullies get away with it and they’re just expected to sit back and take it, and if they object, THEY are the bad guys and not being *forgiving*.
And the bully gets away with a smirk on his face to do it again later and to others.
I’m sick of it.
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