Posted on 09/07/2020 7:14:02 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
A few months back, some guy began flirting with my 19-year old daughter via her Instagram account. This is (unfortunately) pretty common, but much to my delight she does a great job with slamming the door in their face.
However, this particular guy was more persistent than usual and wouldn’t back off. His tenacity led my daughter to use her excellent technical sleuthing skills to find out exactly who he was.
Turns out the guy was a married youth pastor.
My daughter found him, his church, his wife, and other details. That presented us with the dilemma of whether we should contact his church and wife and inform them of the guy’s problematic pastime.
The experience also led my daughter to open up to my wife and me about the continuing disappointment she has with other supposed Christians. She and my older daughter have stopped going to church because they found those in the young adult groups to be far less kind, welcoming and authentic than those in their secular college crowds.
We got story after story from her of young Christian guys going on mission trips who end up attempting to molest the girls in their group. Witnessing first-hand episodes of drug use, outlandish lying and deception and similar behaviors from their peers (and their peer’s parents) have both my girls thinking that people in the church cannot be trusted in any way, shape or form.
Not exactly a pick-me-up kind of tale, huh?
But wait – aren't we told that Christians aren’t perfect, just forgiven? That if you ever find the perfect church, you shouldn’t join because you’ll spoil it (said Billy Graham and Charles Spurgeon)?
We say these things in hopes of convincing non-Christians that they shouldn’t let mistakes they’ve made in their life keep them from pursuing Christianity nor expect perfection from Christians when evaluating the faith. After all, the Bible tells us we all have a sin nature that causes us to fall short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23) and that, even after being born again, the same sin nature remains active and causes us to do wrong (Rom. 7).
But what if our critics are more right than we like to admit? What if hypocrisy and a spirit that is anything but Christlike typifies the Church’s behavior these days?
Studies done by David Kinnaman and his Barna group, which you can find summarized in books like unChristian and You Lost Me, show that the best argument against Christianity isn’t the problem of evil or any other apologetics-styled objection. Instead, it’s the lives lived out by professing Christians.
It’s what caused the German philosopher Nietzsche to say, “I might believe in the Redeemer if his followers looked more redeemed” and Gandhi to declare: “I like Christ, but I don’t like the Christians. The Christians are so unlike their Christ.”
We read in Scripture statements like, “Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come” (2 Cor. 5:17) and “Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life” (Rom. 6:4).
If this is true, why is it that the “new things” and “newness of life” in professing Christian’s lives either seem completely absent or appear so seldom?
It’s at this point that many church leaders throw out the ‘church isn’t perfect’ line in hopes of blunting the accusation. Frankly, I’m tired of hearing it.
We’ve gotten to the point where this excuse uses Paul’s admissions of struggling with sin in Romans 7 like some kind of permission slip; it goes beyond admitting that we sin to almost justifying persistent sinful behavior. Plus, it does nothing to address the very real problem of incongruent behavior that exists between Christ and His Church.
I’d like to suggest a couple of possible root causes for what Kinnaman and others observe along with some cures for the issues.
I believe the biggest source of this problem to be the fact that today’s Church is 9-months pregnant with unbelievers. I say this not judgmentally, but rather because I used to be one.
There’s nothing wrong with unbelievers being in Church. But, there’s everything wrong with them staying unbelievers.
So many who sit in the pews think that because they believe in God, they’re saved and safe. So, you believe in God, do you? Big deal.
The Pharisees believed in God and Jesus rhetorically asked them how they would escape the sentence of Hell (Matt. 23:33). James told his readers if that’s all they possessed then they had nothing more than the demons (James 2:19).
When you combine a reluctance from the pulpit to offend audiences about the truth of their sin with nothing more than a general acknowledgement from that crowd that God exists, you have everything needed for a false faith, false assurance, and a life that in no way will live out the teachings of Christ because, simply put, it lacks the power to do so (e.g. Rom. 8:7).
Instead of services that resemble a comfy group Youtube session, the Church needs straightforward teaching that speaks the truth in love about sin in a way that makes an unbeliever’s conscience and soul uncomfortable to the point where they seek help. Only then will the unbeliever in the pew become a true Christian and start exhibiting the fruit and changed life that confirms a true conversion has taken place (James 2).
Lately I’ve noticed a very bad trend in my own life. When frustrated or angered, in the heat of the moment, I’ve started to let foul language fly.
This hasn’t been something with which I’ve ever really wrestled, and it’s bothered me greatly because Jesus said: “the mouth speaks that which fills the heart” (Luke 6:45). After some contemplation, I think I know what’s going on.
My wife and I have been consistently streaming various drama series that, while containing good story lines and acting, are overloaded with bad language. I’m convinced my new problem with expletives is related to that which I’ve been constantly letting in my ear-gate.
The battle with our fallen nature is real. Paul confirms this when he says, “For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please” (Gal. 5:17). Ingesting a constant, bad diet through the eyes, ears, wrong relationships and actions will result in ungodly habits forming, just like the old Church proverb says:
Two natures beat within my breast
The one is foul, the one is blessed
The one I love, the one I hate.
The one I feed will dominate.
This is why we’re told: “sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it” (Gen. 4:7). Disregarding this truth and immersing oneself in the world is a recipe for disaster where Christlikeness is concerned.
Look how fast it happened to me.
The letters of Paul are full of admissions about the struggles with sin and our spiritual war. But let’s not forget that the same Paul who wrote those things also wrote:
Paul didn’t let the reality of Romans 7 keep him from pursuing the goal that is in front of you and me each morning: Christlikeness. In fact, Paul was so confident of his behavior that he exhorted others to mimic him.
Would you feel comfortable right now doing the same?
No, the Church isn’t perfect, but if we’re not careful, we’ll use that reality as a green-light to sluff off sin and before you know it, you’re a married youth pastor who makes sexual advances over the Internet to 19-year old girls.
And that’s one tragic place to be.
Robin Schumacher is an accomplished software executive and Christian apologist who has written many articles, authored and contributed to several Christian books, appeared on nationally syndicated radio programs, and presented at apologetic events. He holds a BS in Business, Master's in Christian apologetics and a Ph.D. in New Testament. His latest book is, A Confident Faith: Winning people to Christ with the apologetics of the Apostle Paul.
After all, Jesus Christ did establish one Church, and only one church.
And just who is its living pope?
1. Protestants reject Christ’s Catholic Church through the heresy of Luther, Calvin and others. (Matthew 16:18-19)
There's nothing in Matthew or the rest of the bible that suggests that the Catholic Church has any connection to Christianity let alone being the one true church...
2. Protestants reject Christ biblical established Sacraments that were given to us with graces for our salvation: Baptism (some accept), Eucharist, Confession, Confirmation, Matrimony, Holy Orders, Anointing of the Sick.
There are no Catholic sacraments in the bible...
3. Protestants reject Christ’s authority given to the Catholic Church to interpret the Bible.(Luke 10:16)
How in the world do you connect that verse with interpreting scripture...And again, there is no Catholic Church in the scriptures...Except in the numerous places we are warned about religions identical to yours...
4. Protestants reject Christ’s authorized representative on earth. (Matthew 16:18-19)
There are two of Christ's representatives on Earth...One is the Holy Spirit and the other is the Bible...Some communist Catholic who likely is a homosexual is NOT Christ's representative on Earth...He is somebody's representative but it's not Jesus Christ...
5. Protestants Denial of Sacred Traditions. (1 Cor 11:2)
Your Catholic traditions are not Sacred and they have no connection to Jesus even tho they might mention his name on occasion...And what tradition??? Wearing long robes decked out with gold and precious gems??? Calling each other Father??? Knowingly bestowing 'holy orders' on queers??? I don't think those orders are too holy and they certainly are not biblical...
6. Protestants Rejection of 7 inspired books of the Old Testament based on one man Luther. Luther attempted to remove 4 books of the New Testament(Hebrews, James, Jude and Revelations).
The Jewish bible doesn't have any of those books so why should we???
7. Protestants Rejection of Purgatory for our sanctification(Rev 21:27; 1 Cor 3:13-15; 2 Macc 12:44-45)
That's because the bible rejects any kind of purgatory in spite of the scripture you falsely attempt to attribute to it...After you die if your soul starts feeling some heat, it ain't purgatory...
8.The Sacrifice of the Mass and the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. (Luke 22:19; 1Cor 10:16;1 Cor 11:26)
Every Christian in the World HAS the real presence of Jesus already...Why would we go to a pretend Church to eat a pretend Jesus when we already have him??? That was one of the mysteries revealed to Paul to reveal to us...
One of your cohorts on this thread admitted that Catholics do no believe the bible in its entirety...Of course we already knew that because of some of the Old Testament miracles your Church publicly rejects...So here John responds to your unbelief:
Joh_3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
Mar_4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
By your unbelief you have rejected the mystery of the kingdom of God and are reduced to reading parables such as your Eucharist scenario while the truth is given spiritually to real Christians...
The kingdom of God is the church in the church age...The one we are in now...And while that was a mystery for those of the Old Testament as well as modern unbelievers, the mystery has been revealed to real believers...
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
This is why real Christians won't waste 5 seconds of their time with a Eucharist...Every Christian has Jesus within him without stepping a foot in a Catholic Church...And I have no doubt that this is some more of the scripture you chose not to believe...
9. Faith and Works. “so faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.” (James 2:17) ( Rom 2:13; Heb 10:26-27; Jas 2:14: Jas 2:18-20; Jas 2:24;Rom 2:6-8; Luke 6:46; Matt7:21)
But attaining salvation by the free gift of grace with works is also dead...Eph. 2:8,9...
That's some more scripture you won't believe...
9.“For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” Matt 6:14-15 Also read Heb 4:16 and Heb 10:26-27
That's some great scripture but doctrinally has nothing to do with the churches...We are not under the law but under grace...Read and believe Galatians...That's right after Ephesians...
For ages, that belief has been a minority view in Christendom (Catholic and Orthodox) even unto this day. Are the vast majority of those who have practiced Christianity unto this day guilty of heresy? It’s either Paul or the overwhelming majority of Christians.
So, Is Paul a heretic? Technically, yes. But there are many great Christians (Origen, Augustine, Luther, and Calvin to name just a few) who have professed beliefs on an issue that have been deemed heretical.
Wow...You compare the apostle Paul with Origen and Augustine???
Where do you suppose Paul got his information from???
The early church found great philosophical problems with Paul’s opinion on Justification.
You think the bible was or should have been written based on human philosophy???
The writings from Paul’s time only hint at the intellectual challenges it would eventually face.
Stop...Yer killin' me...
Why are you even on a biblical discussion thread??? Since you don't believe the bible you couldn't possibly believe in the God of the bible...I hope you don't call yourself a Christian...That would be an insult to the rest of us Christians...
“The view that Salvation is through Faith alone is heresy.”
Since you obviously don’t own a Bible, just shoot me a FReepmail with your address and I’ll see that you get one.
HaHa...That's right before Ephesians...
Grace is not preceded by merit.
A man can be saved only when God shows mercy.
A man can do no good without God. A man does nothing good for which God is not responsible.
We are loved by God, even when we displease Him, so that we might have means to please Him.
A man can do no good without God. A man does nothing good for which God is not responsible.
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Can man choose to believe in God without God being ultimately responsible?
If not, then it begs the question(s): “Why didn’t God instill belief in me? Why not you?”
Especially when the consequences are eternal damnation.
Since you obviously don’t own a Bible, just shoot me a FReepmail with your address and I’ll see that you get one.
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“Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?” (James 2:21)
“And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?” (James 2:25)
My Bible seems to be working just fine.
We are loved by God, even when we displease Him, so that we might have means to please Him.
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This statement is awfully hard to reconcile with the belief that those who do not choose Faith in Jesus Christ fail to do so because God does not will it.
Abraham. Rahab. All Old Testament. Salvation WAS via works then and not simple faith.
Abraham. Rahab. All Old Testament. Salvation WAS via works then and not simple faith.
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That’s not what James is arguing in his Epistle. Or does your Bible not make that clear?
Both “justified by works”. Of course. That’s what people did living under the law and not under grace.
“Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?” (James 2:21)
***
Sorry, but you outright rejected the authority of Holy Scripture AND of individual apostolic writing just a few posts ago.
You can’t try to invoke both now without being completely hypocritical.
Sorry, but you outright rejected the authority of Holy Scripture AND of individual apostolic writing just a few posts ago.
You can’t try to invoke both now without being completely hypocritical.
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No I didn’t I rejected a specific theological opinion of Paul’s. I have not rejected the Scripture or the Apostles as a whole.
You... just conceded both my points.
All right then. Let’s follow this train to its terminus.
Since the Apostle Paul, according to you, is ‘technically’ a heretic (despite being taught by Jesus himself, or are you accusing him of being a liar about that too?) then it follows that all the Apostles could be heretics. (And don’t try to claim that “the Apostles speaking together” is somehow true without offering me definitive proof.)
If so, then what proof do you have that Catholicism is true? Church councils have included as canonical books by, according to you, a known heretic, so they’re not trustworthy. The Apostles aren’t trustworthy because you have accused one of them of being a false teacher, and because the New Testament was either written by the Apostles or an assistant to one, Scripture isn’t trustworthy.
So on what should I base my knowledge of salvation, hm? And if you say ‘tradition’ then may I remind you that it was a tradition handed down by a heretic.
No I didn’t I rejected a specific theological opinion of Paul’s. I have not rejected the Scripture or the Apostles as a whole.
***
You literally just outright claimed that the canon of Scripture contains false teaching and that the Apostle Paul is a heretic.
That sounds like rejecting the authority of both Scripture AND the Apostles!
How can it possibly be not?
Again, you’ve just denied the teaching of the Catholic Church (Council of Orange 529).
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You’ve posted a rather large amount of text. Could you be a little more specific about what I’ve supposedly denied?
And don’t try to claim that “the Apostles speaking together” is somehow true without offering me definitive proof.
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Ok they do speak together when they say, for example that Jesus is the Messiah, that he died for the remission of sins, that belief in him is a necessary precondition for salvation, that he rose from the dead, etc. , etc.
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