Posted on 01/31/2020 4:15:46 AM PST by JosephJames
As would be expected.
Nevertheless, a lack of understanding is not the same as discovery of error.
In a word, “yes.”
Because if that’s so, it’s just flat-out untrue. I see over the years how He’s been at work at my life, including over the decades when I didn’t even really understand that. And since I really began to study His Word, go to church, pray, praise Him and speak out as a witness for Him, He has grown my faith and also brought me ever closer to Him.
Which is different from the witness of a Mormon, how?
How so when I’ve experienced myself being drawn closer to Him, including knowing Him better and growing in faith?
And He has endorsed that conclusion, how?
I am wondering what your thoughts are on what the Three Kings saw over 2000 years ago to motivate them to go toward Jerusalem (http://bethlehemstar.net/)?
Also I am wondering what your thoughts are on what was seen early in the morning of September 23, 2017 regarding the combination of the Constellation Virgo and the planets. I am convinced that we saw on this morning the first two verses of Rev. 12: “And a great sign appeared in heaven: A WOMAN CLOTHED WITH THE SUN, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars: And being with child, she cried travailing in birth, and was in pain to be delivered” (Rev 12:1-2).
I find it also very interesting the next verse: “And another portent appeared in heaven; behold, A GREAT RED DRAGON, with seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems upon his heads” (Rev 12:3).
Certainly you can accuse me of prooftexting as do many Christians. But also there are many Christians who do not want to consider the possibility that our modern mass media is very highly controlled by the super elite of the world; this would not be “politically correct”, to which a great number of Christians bow down to.
God created the universe, which moves like a huge precise clock. The universe was above all created for the King of the Universe, Jesus Christ, and secondarily for human beings. God has programmed signs in the heavens especially to indicate, to those who have their eyes open and are seeking their Creator, the first and the second coming of the Son of God. With the computer, we can see for ourselves what the Three Kings saw before the birth of Christ, THE STAR OF BETHLEHEM, which convinced them to travel about 1000 kilometers to Bethlehem. Recently we have seen the extraordinary sign from God in the heavens on September 23, 2017: “And a great sign appeared in heaven: A WOMAN CLOTHED WITH THE SUN, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars: And being with child, she cried travailing in birth, and was in pain to be delivered” (Rev 12:1-2). Visit: “Signs of God vs. Signs of Satan” (http://spir-food.blogspot.it/2016/12/signs-god-vs-satan.html).
You wrote: “What God-given satisfaction and enjoyment do you believe you get out of your beliefs on the Lord’s Supper? Include whatever you believe faithful Protestants don’t get.
”
It always amazes me how much we are surrounded by and immersed today into subjectivism and relativism!!! “Satisfaction and enjoyment”!!! I am seeking the objective truth from God, not my own “satisfaction and enjoyment”, the truth that God has revealed throughout the history of mankind that we call Divine Revelation. The truth of God, not of man, will set us free (Jn 8:32)! Certainly we humans, in our subjectivism and relativism can wrongly interpret Divine Revelation, which is clearly seen by the very numerous contradictory interpretations from one independent protestant group to the next. This is why Christ founded one divinely guided Church.
The truth is not based on human intelligence, as St. Paul many times explained. At this point, if we do not accept the one Church that Christ founded, the discussion ends up only on human intelligence, and thus I do not think we need to waste each other’s time. Let us pray for each other that we correspond with all the graces God gives to each of us.
“To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary; to one without faith, no explanation is possible” – St. Thomas Aquinas.
Mom MD said: “praying to Mary and putting her in between the believer and Christ does offend Him. We are told there is but one mediator between God and man and that is Christ the Lord. Rationalize your treatment of Mary anyway you want but it is unbiblical idolatry”
And yet...
[11] I discover then the truth unto you, and I will not hide the secret from you. [12] When thou didst pray with tears, and didst bury the dead, and didst leave thy dinner, and hide the dead by day in thy house, and bury them by night, I offered thy prayer to the Lord. [13] And because thou wast acceptable to God, it was necessary that temptation should prove thee. [14] And now the Lord hath sent me to heal thee, and to deliver Sara thy son’s wife from the devil. [15] For I am the angel Raphael, one of the seven, who stand before the Lord. - Tobit 12:11-15 D-R Bible
[2] And I saw seven angels standing in the presence of God; and there were given to them seven trumpets. [3] And another angel came, and stood before the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar, which is before the throne of God. [4] And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel. - Revelation 8:2-4 D-R Bible
So, the Archangels deliver our prayers to God. Pray tell me, how this possible if your interpretation is correct?
[1] I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men: ... [2] For kings, and for all that are in high station: that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all piety and chastity. ... [3] For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, [4] Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. ... [5] For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus: [6] Who gave himself a redemption for all, a testimony in due times.
Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, with regard to Redemption.
Besides, Jesus taught to us pray to God the Father by saying the Our Father. So, how does this jive with your response? Clearly, “there are more things in heaven... than are dreamt of in your philosophy.” - Hamlet (1.5.167-8)
Tradition guides understanding.
Hamlet and Tobit are not authoritative scripture.
Yes we are to pray but never are we told to pray to anyone but God. Never. Show me one instance in Scripture of Christ or the apostles addressing prayer to anyone but God. You can’t.
Christ is the only mediator between God and man period. There is no wiggle room in that verse.
Im still waiting for scripture to prove otherwise.
Ask this false prophet about his belief on Nibiru.
You are, of course, entitled to your inferences. However, one would expect some support for those inferences, particularly when said inferences have a firmly established home elsewhere in Protestantism.
Conversely, the motivations of prominent Catholics who become Protestant seem rather obvious as, including Martin Luther himself, they invariably renege on their vows of celibacy.
And what does being a religious leader prove?
A more than capricious interest in the faith traditions they walk away from.
Given that Herod had males killed who were two years and under,I believe what the Magi saw was an object that they had observed from at least 2 years before their arrival to Jerusalem, per the story where Herod had asked about the times of the appearance of the star.
We know that the stars in the sky appear to move through-out the night due to the Earth’s rotation on it’s axis and that the constellations them selves move seasonably due to the Earth’s rotation about the sun. I think they began viewing an unblinking object, to their west, that appeared not to move through out the night and did not move with the seasons. That is why the two year figure is important.
As magi, they would have been well versed with the seasonable movements of the constellations and the nightly moves of the stars as well as the expected rises and the expected movements of the planets as they were studied and tracked and records kept for centuries before them. They would have known about the longer term processional movements of the constellations. One FREEPER argues that the Magi saw the last bit of the southern cross just before it finally slipped out of view of the Northern hemisphere and they attached special meaning to it. Yet the Magi, though knowledgeable of the legends attached to the stars, and well versed at pondering the portents of the appearances of comets and conjunctions would have been aware of these natural movements and I believe would have attached no undue significance then to wonder...”hmmm maybe an important person was born somewhere.
No, I think they saw something so awesome yet its significance would not have been guessed at by regular people because the star at a distance probably looked so ordinary. It was something that piqued their interest in that it DID NOT APPEAR TO MOVE!
So my scenario goes like this: So these night observers scan the heavens and they note one night that some ordinary magnitude looking star appears in the west. Everything else was where it had always been and where it has been expected to be. They weren’t quite sure perhaps when it precisely appeared but perhaps they knew it wasn’t there “last week” when they last viewed that area. There had been new stars and phenomena before and some predicted earthly events based on such phenomena had not always panned out as predicted or had to be “fudged to look like they did”. The Magi knew this, it was a hazard of their trade.
So they kept an eye on this star for a bit, studying the times and the legends. One night one of the magi says to a buddy” You know buddy, do you notice that this “King” star doesn’t move? Right at sun down there it is shining about 15 degrees above the eastern horizon and it stays there all night...everything else moves but there it is all night, right in the same place... Do you suppose the Hebrew legends were true?”
His buddy, the senior magi, was more cautious” We’ve seen strange things in the skies before that didn’t amount to much when it came to events upon the Earth, but lets carefully study this star’s movements in relation to everything else for another month or so...”
So they studied it and a certain sense of excitement began to build in them...could it be? Was the long awaited savior of the world finally born? The star did not move from its position, night after night. So they decided to mount an expedition to look for the possible savior of the world. They studied the Hebrew legends and calculated from the time line listed in Daniel that “NOW” might be the right time.
One of the Magi traveled North for 100 miles and returned to them. He reported that the apparent position of the star did not stay specifically strictly directly westward but apparently appeared more a little southwest of his position. Trips were taken south with the star appearing more Northwest than what would be expected. Palestinia/Israel was the triangulated center! Based on their measurements, the triangulated center was some distance away at least 3 months journey
So like Moses, who had noted countless trees that had burst into flames due to the sun’s heat acting on their resins in the hot desert climate, yet who looked again and saw a bush that was not being consumed in the flame that emanated from it and thus turned aside to see that great sight, the Magi upended their lives and destinies to study this star that did not move in it’s position.
They traveled to see and worship the king that most assuredly was directly under the position of that most unusual star. They felt an inward radiant unction, some of their number were having dreams!!
As they wandered toward Palestinia, they noted that the apparent position of the star was apparently elevating upward above the horizon the farther west they went. Still it did not move it’s position or change it’s brightness thoughout the night while disappearing in the day. The constellations changed, the planets moved as expected but night after night the star stayed stubbornly in it’s position other than moving apparently upward the further west they traveled.
One week they tried an experiment, as a group they would travel due North and watch the star’s position. Sure enough the star appeared to recede south west of them while otherwise staying in it’s position and not moving thru the night but dipping a bit in when compared to the south west horizon. They traveled again straight to where the star appeared directly east and the star’s position also rose in elevation as compared to it’s elevated position. This allowed them to use Greek geometrical math to map their way and calculate apparent distance to where the star would appear directly over head. 2 more weeks travel. They would stop first in Jerusalem as the great Temple was there that they had heard about. Perhaps the priests there would have more information about their search, about this great Star risen out of Jacob, (Jacob, whom God had surnamed Israel)!
Perhaps it was a cloudy period when the Magi had reached Jerusalem. They were sure they were near the right place but they needed more info. They were an unusual sight, these company of wisemen and mystics, in Jerusalem. They approached the temple priests with their queries and were soon ushered into the presence of Herod. The Romans had delicate dealings with the lands that these magi came from and Herod needed to be cautious but gracious in his dealings. The Magi explained that they had arrived to see the King of the Jews and have come to worship him. The temple priests were consulted and they did confirm that according to the Daniel timelines that a prince would be born at this time but then be cutoff for his people but that was just legend and no one had really seen such a star that the Magi had spoken of. Herod I think was immediately more troubled and a bit supersticious. He asked about the times and the appearance dates of the star and began to form a plan in his evil mind...”two years, hmmm, somewhere in the Bethlehem district according to the temple priests...and if I could find this child , he could be made to disappear and that will quash this messiah business and end a threat to my throne”
Herod sent the Magi on their way after making them promise to send word of his location so he could “come and worship him, too!”
The rest is biblical history. As they left Jerusalem, they again saw the star that appeared to “go before them” and they rejoiced. This was no ordinary star and as they found where the star shown overhead they found their Messiah, now a toddler about two years old and living in a house that Joseph had presumably procured for his Holy family.
Imagine, Mary sitting and pondering, Joseph scratching his head a little worried but a bit interested in the gold and gifts brought to the King, not avariciously so, just naturally so, the way any father would be in seeking advantages when raising and supporting his family. And then Jesus, laughing and giggling, running amongst the camels and gazing and giggling at the Magi who had bowed down to worship him. Jesus knew their hearts even then; these Magi too , were His sheep and had heard his voice!
The magi as the Bible stated, had dreams and to a man, they were warned by God not to return to Herod but to go back to their lands by another way.
Perhaps,It was a wrathful Herod who realized his mistake in not having the magi followed or by not sending an escort with the Magi. Roman edicts and complicated politics perhaps, perhaps a clouding of Herod’s mind by God. Nevertheless,the Bible says he exacted his vengeance on the males 2 years and younger in that Bethlehem district and wiped them all out. Too late, God had warned Joseph, and he took his family to Egypt before Herod’s forces could get to the young Jesus.
Anyway that is my opinion on the star, not that the story I spun happened the way I wrote it. I think they saw a star, that did not move the way everything else did in the heavens. It was not necessarily a super shiny star when they saw it, but it did not move night after night in comparison with anything else that moved. And that is what got their attention....was there a bit of Holy Spirit unction? You decide.
I saw that. Hm.
I don’t have time to reply to this today.
My point is that what you are describing is totally subjective.
That being said, what is it about your subjective experience that makes it more authentic than that of a Mormon claiming exactly the same experiences?
In innumerable ways...etc.
Again, you're not describing anything that falls outside the norms of the human condition. Even Alcoholics Anonymous, a overtly secular organization, has direct experiential analogs to everything you mentioned.
Seeking to develop certain habits of mind develops and strengthens those habits of mind; there's nothing spiritual about that.
What you describe is no different than a person seeking to improve their physique through the habits of exercise finding it easier to perform exercise, and even extending that habit into attention to their diet.
And how do you believe He's endorsed a Catholic's personal relationship with Him but not another Christian's?
See my tagline.
[Jde 1:17-19 KJV] 17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; 18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. 19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
YOU’RE BELIEVING THIS FALSE PROPHET????
Better watch it, Father. You're sounding like one of us "rednecks."
So, in chapter 16 of Saint Paul to the Roman,... http://drbo.org/chapter/52016.htm ...Paul says to salute these people who worked for Christ. But you say, as soon as they “have run their race” and secured themselves to Christ through a Holy death, why then we can’t salute them in victory (veneration)? Nor ask them to pray for us as we could in life (petition)? Those who are one Spirit in Christ? And they call Catholics rigid, narrow and mean?
Look at how you narrowed the parameters, I went from searching the Old and New Testament, to you cutting off books of the Old Testament, to you cutting off all examples that aren’t limited to Christ and the twelve Apostles, not just saying to pray to the Saints but actually doing it! If I should say, look at the Transfiguration, Christ giving us the example of talking to Saints after their death, why you will say that doesn’t count, that was under the old Law. If you have to move the goalpost like that to “win” your argument,... you already lost it.
Let us pray for each other. In the end if we have true humility, and thus are seeking the Truth that comes from outside of ourselves, from God, we will find the Truth that sets us free (Jn 8:32). In our atmosphere today of relativism, it is very difficult to realize on which side we are on. So many Christians say the Our Father, “THY will be done”, in live it, “MY will be done”, and are not willing to consider the point of view of another that might help us to realize how far we are totally immersed in relativism. Only one time did Jesus say “learn from me”: “Learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.” (Mt 11:29). Life is short, eternity is very long. Let us pray for each other.
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