Okay Trucker39 blew my mind last night with Isaiah 45:11. Apparently Clement is in good company when he says God wants us to command him. Maybe there is a point where our souls are so aligned with God and we are so immersed in the spirit that we can do that without being disrespectful. Can't imagine it. But Isaiah said it.
However, Forgiven_Sinner, says if a prophecy ever fails the person is a false prophet. That aligns with what Moses told us in
Deuteronomy 18:22 – “When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.”
Retrofitted points out Clement admits to having been wrong. Thus the logical conclusion is a false prophet or at least a prophet that can't be counted on.
We know Paul encountered a woman who was possessed of a spirit that could tell the future. She harrassed Paul until Paul cast the spirit out of the woman making the town really angry. So prophesying by an evil spirit is possible.
But is it possible to tap into the Holy Spirit and get it mostly right? Yet fall short of being a true prophet?
"While I find the Clement prophecies interesting, I’m not putting my confidence in them." -unlearner
“But occasionally speaking ‘presumptuously’ and getting it wrong some of the time? Or does getting it wrong, necessarily make a person truly evil?”
In the present dispensation of superabounding grace, we (the church) do not execute people. We do not administer physical punishments such as prison, flogging, or fines. These errors crept into the church in previous times but have been mostly eradicated.
So, a false prophet or heretic is subject to spiritual discipline, which could include being put out of the church for being unrepentant. (Those who are outside, God judges.)
I agree with the statement that someone could have a prophetic gift but also speak presumptuously. It is far more serious to make such statements appended to the claim that God said it. God might chasten his children up to and including premature death for such offenses. We see examples of such judgment in the New Testament. While I am not asserting such to be the case with Clement, I also would not rule this out. It appears from a cursory review of his claims (of God speaking) that he has gotten some things very wrong. I believe I heard him make claims that Bill Gates and Hillary Clinton would turn to God and serve God in some form or fashion. I suppose since they are still alive it is not too late. But presently they are far from it.
“Apparently Clement is in good company when he says God wants us to command him.”
Or perhaps bad company. A mark of good theology and exegesis is teaching the “whole counsel of God” as Paul described it in Acts. It is the characteristic of cults to advocate erroneous teachings using proof texts.
The example in Isaiah is rhetorical. Would a person command God? It’s ridiculous. There is similar language in Job when God speaks to Job. It is like asking, “Who has become the Lord’s counselor?” Likewise, sometimes the word used for prayer/petitions literally means “demand”. Do we ever have the audacity to demand something of God? Of course not.
In context, we bring our legal demands to God. You can think of a legal demand as something contractual like a check. If someone pays you by check and you take it to the bank to cash it, you are making a type of legal demand. You hand it to the teller and fully expect to receive cash in return. But you don’t do so with a suspicious, demanding attitude. That would be rude. And we certainly do not bring legal demands to God with suspicion and doubting His trustworthiness. It is with an attitude of humility, reverence, and thankfulness that we appeal to God to honor His promises.
So, we can come to God and appeal on the basis that His word says “He cares for you,” and “the Father knows you have need of all of these things,” and “my God shall supply all of your needs.” God can accomplish things when everyone and everything else fails. And this seems to be when He does so most often. But I can assure you, on the basis of many scriptural principles, He will not do so if someone tries to “command” Him or “demand” that He does a certain thing.
“Deuteronomy 18:22 – “When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.”
Retrofitted points out Clement admits to having been wrong. Thus the logical conclusion is a false prophet or at least a prophet that can’t be counted on. “
This is biblically accurate, and is what I meant.
Thank you for posting it, for all who had this concern regarding Mr. Clement. I believe that he may have been doctrinally problematic as well.
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I believe that the Lord was speaking here through Isaiah to King Cyrus, the ruler, from Isaiah 45:1 to Isaiah 45:13.
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Isaiah Chapter 45
1 Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus,
whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;
2 I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:
3 And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.
4 For Jacob my servant’s sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
5 ¶ I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.
9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
10 Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?
11 Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. 12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.
14 Thus saith the LORD, The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come after thee; in chains they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto thee, they shall make supplication unto thee, saying, Surely God is in thee; and there is none else, there is no God.
15 Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.
16 They shall be ashamed, and also confounded, all of them: they shall go to confusion together that are makers of idols.
17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.
18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
19 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.
Perhaps I am incorrect, but more reading is necessary here.
People can get “the spririt of the age” right and therefore make a ton of prognostications and I will applaud that. George Gilder is a secular sort who does that.
It is also possible to get a sensitivity to the Holy Spirit right and have a “feel” for what is and what might go down. I have sympathy for that.
What I absolutely cannot stand is this business of speaking first person for God. The older administration of the covenant was clear that this is a lying spirit (which can sometimes speak truth!!!) and when Israel was a theocracy, it was punishable by death. We are not under the civil codes of the OT, so I ain’t for stoning, but neither to I have one scintilla of patience for them