The Meaning of the Magi...Matthew nativity pt 4

https://billrandles.wordpress.com/2019/12/15/the-meaning-of-the-magi-matthew-nativity-pt-4/ ^ | 12-12-19 | Bill Randles

[Elsie]

Don’t you follow one of the creeds that say something about Jesus going to hell before rising to His resurrection?

You assume I 'follow' some 'creed'?

[fproy2222]

“You assume I ‘follow’ some ‘creed’?”

Is tha a yes or a no or an elsie?

[fproy2222]

“Look it up now.”

I will give you someone elsie’s answer to this often asked question.

Salvation for the Dead: A Response to Luke Wilson

https://www.fairmormon.org/conference/august-1999/salvation-for-the-dead-a-response-to-luke-wilson

[Elsie]

Is tha a yes or a no or an elsie?
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This is a direct attempt to NOT answer the plain question asked you: “You assume I ‘follow’ some ‘creed’?”

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2:02           "We really aren't obligated to answer everyone's questions..."

You've remembered your schooling well!

Answer the question that SHOULD have been asked.

[Elsie]

I will give you someone elsie’s answer to this often asked question.

Not off the top of my head, remind me another time and I will look it up.

In all this confusion; it appears that you've forgotten that you said that YOU would look it up.

I await YOUR reply; NOT what the self-proclaimed spinmasters of MORMONism have to say.

[Elsie]

"You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived

of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind.

The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother.

Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose

and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race--that they should be the 'servant of servants', and they will be, until that curse is removed."

 

Brigham Young-President and second 'Prophet' of the Mormon Church, 1844-1877- Extract from Journal of Discourses.

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Here are two examples from their 'other testament', the Book of Mormon.

 

2 Nephi 5: 21 'And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him,

that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people, the Lord God did

cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.'

Alma 3: 6 'And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression

and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men.'

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August 27, 1954 in an address at Brigham Young University (BYU),

 

Mormon Elder, Mark E Peterson, in speaking to a convention of teachers of religion at the college level, said:

"The discussion on civil rights, especially over the last 20 years, has drawn some very sharp lines. It has blinded the thinking of some of our own people, I believe.

They have allowed their political affiliations to color their thinking to some extent.  I think I have read enough to give you an idea of what the Negro is after."

"He is not just seeking the opportunity of sitting down in a cafe where white people eat. He isn't just trying to ride on the same streetcar or the same Pullman car

with white people. It isn't that he just desires to go to the same theater as the white people.

From this, and other interviews I have read, it appears that the Negro seeks absorption with the white race. He will not be satisfied until he achieves it by intermarriage."

"That is his objective and we must face it. We must not allow our feelings to carry us away, nor must we feel so sorry for Negroes that we will open our arms and embrace them

with everything we have. Remember the little statement that we used to say about sin,

 'First we pity, then endure, then embrace'...."

(Rosa Parks would have probably told Petersen under which wheel of the bus he should go sit.)

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1967, (then) Mormon President Ezra Taft Benson said,

 

"The Communist program for revolution in America has been in progress for many years and is far advanced. First of all, we must not place the blame upon Negroes. They are merely

the unfortunate group that has been selected by professional Communist agitators to be used as the primary source of cannon fodder."

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We are told that on June 8, 1978, it was 'revealed' to the then president, Spencer Kimball, that people of color could now gain entry into the priesthood. According to the church,

Kimball spent many long hours petitioning God, begging him to give worthy black people the priesthood.

God finally relented.

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Sometime before the 'revelation' came to chief 'Prophet' Spencer Kimball in June 1978,

General Authority, Bruce R McConkie had said:

"The Blacks are denied the Priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty. The Negroes are not equal with other races

where the receipt of certain blessings are concerned, particularly the priesthood and the temple blessings that flow there from, but this inequality is not of man's origin, it is the Lord's doings."

(Mormon Doctrine, pp. 526-527).

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When Mormon 'Apostle' Mark E Petersen spoke on 'Race Problems- As they affect the Church' at the BYU campus in 1954,

the following was also said:

"...if the negro accepts the gospel with real, sincere faith, and is really converted, to give him the blessings of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost, he can and will enter the celestial kingdom.

He will go there as a servant, but he will get celestial glory."

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When Mormon 'Prophet' and second President of the Church, Brigham Young, spoke in 1863 the following was also said:

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God

is death on the spot. This will always be so."

(Journal of Discourses, Vo. 10, p. 110)

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Yeah; Native Americans are althroughout the Book of MORMON; too.

 

“I saw a striking contrast in the progress of the Indian people today ... they are fast becoming a white and delightsome people.... For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome,

as they were promised.... The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation.

At one meeting a father and mother and their sixteen-year-old daughter were present, the little member girl-sixteen-sitting between the dark father and mother, and it was evident she was several shades lighter than her parents—

--on the same reservation, in the same hogan, subject to the same sun and wind and weather.... These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delightsomeness.

One white elder jokingly said that he and his companion were donating blood regularly to the hospital in the hope that the process might be accelerated.

 

(Improvement Era, December 1960, pp.922-23). (p. 209)

 

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[fproy2222]

“In all this confusion; it appears that you’ve forgotten that you said that YOU would look it up”

No confusion, you demanded right now, so with my time constraints you had to settle for second best and since you now have all the information at the speed you demanded, you have removed my need to add to it.

P.S. Thank you for all the different postings. Now those who only want to hear negative things will be pleased and other people will have the desire to know what is real going on and dig farther.

[pastorbillrandles]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svfxSscxh8o

[pastorbillrandles]

I do not think it a salvific issue but a lot of people have reasons they believe the Magi came from Persia, here is an excerpt from an article A. Non-Biblical Evidence We may form a conjecture by non-Biblical evidence of a probable meaning to the word magoi. Herodotus (I, ci) is our authority for supposing that the Magi were the sacred caste of the Medes. They provided priests for Persia, and, regardless of dynastic vicissitudes, ever kept up their dominating religious influence. To the head of this caste, Nergal Sharezar, Jeremias gives the title Rab-Mag, "Chief Magus" (Jeremias 39:3, 39:13, in Hebrew original - Septuagint and Vulgate translations are erroneous here). After the downfall of Assyrian and Babylonian power, the religion of the Magi held sway in Persia. Cyrus completely conquered the sacred caste; his son Cambyses severely repressed it. The Magians revolted and set up Gautama, their chief, as King of Persia under the name of Smerdis. He was, however, murdered (521 B.C.), and Darius became king. This downfall of the Magi was celebrated by a national Persian holiday called magophonia (Her., III, lxiii, lxxiii, lxxix). Still the religious influence of this priestly caste continued throughout the rule of the Achaemenian dynasty in Persia (Ctesias, "Persica", X-XV); and is not unlikely that at the time of the birth of Christ it was still flourishing under the Parthian dominion. Strabo (XI, ix, 3) says that the Magian priests formed one of the two councils of the Parthian Empire.http://www.ldolphin.org/magi.html B. Biblical Evidence

[Elsie]

you have removed my need to add to it.

I have NOT removed YOUR WORDS saying that YOU would provide the data.

[Elsie]

Now those who only want to hear negative things will be pleased and other people will have the desire to know what is real going on and dig farther

And those that do NOT want the dirty laundry of Mormonism aired are cringing, and those who seek the truth will always find it.

[fproy2222]

Listening to the democrats today I noticed that they debate like you.

[MHGinTN]

Sorry, Mormon, it is your twisted reasoning which is similar to the demon rat debating prowess. You are in a non-Christian cult. Come out of that and be born again in Christ.

[fproy2222]

Hi, happy that you are in a good mood.

[fproy2222]

“You are in a non-Christian...”

I guess that means you do not want our help bringing this nation back to Christian ideals.

[imardmd1]

I appreciate the research you have presented here. It still remains that the Magi discussed originated with the Chaldeans, of whom it spread to Persia under Cyrus. The book of Esther shows that the religion of the Jews was also there and blossomed when the influence of Haman was struck down.

There is nothing here to say that the Magi were not the priests of a cult that spread from the original source of Ur of the Chaldeans, nor that the Magi/Magoi did not come from that location of Padanaram.

I am glad that your citation begins with "We may form a conjecture . . ." which I also tried to show in the story that was given to me also. The article as you wrote it would have been better served had you stated it as so,rather than casting it as established fact.

It is true that the central sign of the arrival of the Messiah was an astral one, which the constellation of the Southern Cross fits very nicely, wheras some unknown feature observed by looking west from Teheran does not seem to.

But thanks for the opportunity to propose a novel and more exciting story founded in the origins of the Chosen People as descendants of Abraham, moored to Ur of the Caldees (not the Leonard Wooley one, proven now ro be bluster), Gobeklitepe, and Haran, Laban's family whence come Leah, Rachel and her death at Bethlehem. Don't you think?

[fproy2222]

Science keeps learning and conclusions are proven wrong.

Old from 2006

Now newer from 2016

Ten years of new observed facts about DNA in America.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mADM3RYKl5Y

[Elsie]

Listening to the democrats today I noticed that they debate like you.

That's strange; for the Dems sound like these notable Mormons to me...

Green indicates updated linklinks: October 2019

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Orson Pratt proclaimed:

"Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer).  

Page 273 found HERE https://www.freewebs.com/iglesiadejesucristodeltiempodelfin/Orson%20Pratt%20-%20The%20Seer%20%281854%29.pdf

More confusion:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_and_abominable_church#LDS_Church_publications

 

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Questions put to Joseph Smith:

"'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119). 

Found in section 3 --> http://www.boap.org/LDS/Joseph-Smith/Teachings/T3.html  (search for 119)

 

 

"for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price 1:12).

Found here --->  https://books.google.com/books?id=PkNOAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA74&lpg=PA74&dq=different+sects+understood+the+same+passages&source=bl&ots=17G4-8kYsz&sig=ACfU3U0v-r6iFwZgZnOdUB1_ivzkhFiirQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjq0YqUpajlAhUGUK0KHbHxDNUQ6AEwCXoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=different%20sects%20understood%20the%20same%20passages&f=false

 

"What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).

Found in section 5 --> http://www.boap.org/LDS/Joseph-Smith/Teachings/T3.html  (search for 270)

 

 

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Brigham Young stated this repeatedly:

"When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses Section 5 page 73);

"The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses  Section  8 page 171);

"With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses Section  8 page 199);

"Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses Section 10  page 230).

"And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses Section  6 page 24);

 

 

 

 

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Orson Pratt also said:

"This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses , Section 18, page 44);

"But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses , Section 18 page 172).

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President John Taylor stated:

"Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses , Section 6 page 167);

"Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses , Section 10 page 127).

 

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James Talmage said:

"A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).

 

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President Joseph Fielding Smith said:

"Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266).

"For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).

 

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More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear:

"Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265);

"a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.123);

"virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.250);

"Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.290).

 

 

 

President George Q. Cannon said:

"After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).  <-- can't find an onlink link, but there ARE a lot of hard copy books for sale tha tinclude this quote.

 

 

President Wilford Woodruff stated:

"the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses , Section 2, page 196).

[fproy2222]

Good morning,
Thank you for your help in spreading God’s Word.

Please enjoy the upcoming Christ’s Mass.

[Elsie]

I guess that means you do not want our help bringing this nation back to Christian ideals.

You've had damn near two centuries; what seems to be the problem?

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AoF #10

We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

Perhaps you need to building City Centers and cattle ranches and get the job DONE!

You guys can't even get the Inspired Version to be another work of Mormon Scripture!

Hint: It ain't Elsie's fault!